THEY DONT CARE!!

THEY'LL NEVER ANSWER THIS QUESTION WITH GENUINE INTENT!!

JUST WILL GIVE YOU A S***TY ANSWER TO GASLIGHT U AS IF THEY'RE EQUAL IN POLICY (spoiler: they are not)

I'm not even super emotional about the whole thing I'm just genuinely interested in the perspectives.

With conservatives I see what they gain by voting Trump

With neo liberals(conservatives who don't know it) I see what they gain by voting Biden

But I don't really see anything in what the "I'm not voting at all" people gain in not voting that's tangible.

Which is fine it's fine to do things for just the sake of "I don't think it matters" but people like @op never explain what not voting for Joe or Trump does for Palestinians

I'm not a supporter of either and if i don't vote it'll be because I don't care either way not because of morality and thats why I find the moral argument kind of interesting.

I think the entire act of voting in the presidential election is sort of a performative sentimental political act and won't lead to much of a material difference, people are suffering under bidens admin because little bandaid solutions aren't going to help during a new gilded age,

The whole reason this thread got 39 pages is cause people were mad at OP for being one-sided in their post even if they're technically correct, Biden has shown us who he is,

The more effective political actions are Boycott/divestment (shit happening on college campuses), some countries like Mexico joining in the ICC case against Israel etc, people are blocking the entrances to weapons manufacturers/systems to where they close down production Elbìt systems etc, has resulted in some of those factories shutting down weapons production

Israel in itself is representative of the remaining vestiges of colonialism and apartheid (and the way they conduct themselves and where they put their money and military being tangled up with congo alongside the US for example) in a lot of ways

TLDR: no vote in the US election is necessarily pro-Palestinian, so it's just inherently a contradiction to claim pro-Pal + also vote Biden,

People should just go write in their favorite cartoon character on the ballot for all the good i think itll do

dont worry my peckerwood suburban child you will be back at brunch soon and my kin will continue to starve to death in gaza 😘

…It means you won’t be directly complicit in supporting a genocide since Biden is brazenly sending money and arms to Israel to fund their war on Palestine…

Are you braindead or being purposefully obtuse?

He’ll just share that “All Eyes on Rafah” pic on IG whilst acting like Biden will fix the problem

Maybe it needs to get worse before it gets better. Maybe it's civil war time :brontongue:

You provide leverage to anyone who adopts policy to appease you

The whole point of democracy is that leaders need to serve the people. No one is serving the voters in any meaningful way according to some citizens so they said f*** it, I ain’t voting until I see policy I like

" I think the entire act of voting in the presidential election is sort of a performative sentimental political act and won't lead to much of a material difference, people are suffering under bidens admin because little bandaid solutions aren't going to help during a new gilded age"

I feel like this is such a "both sides" response to something that really isn't that and is kind of out of touch with alot of peoples realities.

If it was a sentimental political act and not a legitimate weapon then i don't think conservatives would be so obsessed with stripping it through gerrymandering and work so hard to secure votes.

Also think women's rights and LGBT rights are great examples of the "people suffer under both" thing because it's very clear under one administration they suffer significantly more no?.

As far as the Palestinian issue I agree there is no solution currently in politics to dealing with that cause and if it's your core cause I think you should do what you think is best.

But by not voting if Trump wins and does worse does that not mean you also participated in allowing someone to do worse?.

Like non action is still action in this scenario because it hands power to one side or the other.

I don't think you can opt out of this in a "moral" way imo.

I get the that part of it that's the argument I'm addressing when I said if you're not voting cuz "I don't think it matters" that's fine and I understand that it's logical.

It's the argument that it's the moral choice of the three that just never hits for me.

When we’ve be raised on the humanist and altruistic values we have and our voting has become representative of our morals, how can it be seen as moral to amicably engage with a system that not only ignored these values, but blatantly disrespects and represses them?

But as long as you have the right to a vote no matter what you are participating even by not participating because the act of you not voting improved the odds for one or the other.

I'm not tryna say whether voting or not is useful or useless or good or evil just that it is the reality of this country and either one you make you are equally as culpable as the people who did vote even if you didn't.

We're all participating in the system there is no opt out even if we don't vote and I'm OK with that reality but it feels like alot of people aren't.

That’s why simply not voting is not enough

Women and LGBT rights have been getting f***ed by the states even while Biden has been in office + with the undemocratic Supreme Court we have it really is up to them to do what they choose to do, sure it could be worse under Trump, things are getting worse with both

I advocate for local elections being more important and even the pres elections I feel like people should go vote for who they feel they should vote for I don't tell people not to vote,

As far as international issues, wars, pushing cold war era tensions etc, I don't think that changes between rep and dem esp. with trump and biden, That's important to me but to a lot of people i engage with it doesn't matter enough to them to change their vote, foreign policy and how other nations are treated is important to me and this country's legacy (and present) with that is so horrible there's always that weighing on my perspective

I'm trying to understand more of where you're coming from because i been hating these two parties for so long I end up having to recalibrate my approach to have certain discussions if im being honest.

I just think organizing outside of the pres election is much more important building that sort of movement rather than letting all your energy for change and solidarity be all sucked dry into the vampire that is the democratic party

Already goes without saying when it comes to the republicans they're cooked in the head but I feel like dems dont get s*** on enough from the left so I choose to exercise that right whenever i can

That's what I like to hear and you one of those people that's why I appreciate you

But they got f***ed because Trump won once that's really my issue is there seems to be this argument that Presidents exist in vacuums and that the issues under Biden are a result of him but the Supreme Court is the way it because of the last election.

It's fine to opt out for personal reasons but I think the argument that opting out is the moral answer or that voting at all is pointless feels as out of touch with reality as thinking voting solves everything.

The argument that "voting doesn't matter because it doesn't work" just always rings hollow cause I only ever see one side say that and the other side actively encourages it and succeeds with it.

You could argue the issue is people n the left don't vote enough for what they want and only when they need to and the right vote all the time

I don't subscribe to opting out as a particularly moral choice but one of many, we don't really have a moral choice in my opinion

I will say voting does feel pointless a lot, although there are many points or reasons I can understand someone doing it for, and I support people's agency to go do that, at least going and doing something to participate is better than no political participation at all, sure...

(There are certain things when i refer to "bandaid solutions" you remember dems were harping on the child tax credit lowering child poverty by half? and then the poverty returned back to that same level or worse even though they passed whatever bs program, that's just one example of them aiming too small and then s*** just reverts back to bad conditions easily...)

I think the "doesn't work" has to be qualified with something otherwise its an overly broad statement. It works to determine certain things but at the same time I abhor the whole "not voting is a vote for XYZ" argument because that logically doesn't even make sense... that wasn't particularly relevant i just wanted to bring up that i hate that argument

(Btw i don't know what prohibition delv or whoever is on i didnt read what they were saying)

Israel Lobby paying Biden over 5M btw

trackaipac.com/us-senate

Pro Israel lobby run the senate & house

Dem or republican it don't matter, you supporting a genocide either way

Even tho Trump is pro Israel he is anti war, and wants to be well liked by people. Trump would probably end the genocide if it meant it would increase his popularity