Nessy

4y

2015: pac lives on
2022: pac lives on i guess but it’s not my problem

Scratchin Mamba

4y

A message about his life yes ...

Slingshot

4y

no it's quite literally just dude headspace it's not message with intent

Scratchin Mamba

4y

What does that even mean without intent lol? He very intentionally gave us a mesage about his headspace

Message doesn't mean he thinks other people should do the same thing

Scratchin Mamba

4y

This post explains my thoughts a bit more @Vox

My stance on what I said in OP hasn't changed, but I can appreciate it still even if it's in a way that I don't think Kendrick intended it to be

Slingshot

4y

the way you said it before made it sound the other way

glad you now acknowledging this album wasn't made to change anybody minds about anything

Vox

4y

Much love

And much love for making this thread and hosting all this great discussion

It can be hard to lock in on anything beyond surviving with everything I'm dealing with so I'm really thankful for stuff like this even when I can only digest it in glimpses

Slingshot

4y

we could deep dive into your wrong thoughts 8 years ago too but who care

Kermit

4y

You wrote this, but then cried about Pitchfork for using “profound” words.

Kermit

4y

You wrote this, but then cried about Pitchfork for using “profound” words.

Nessy

4y

It’s not that serious

Slingshot

4y

this thread in a nutshell

Scratchin Mamba

4y

Bc these words actually have meaning that aren't more easily expressed otherwise and other people seem to agree

Get off my d*** lmao why u so mad abt what i said about a pitchfork reviewer did u write the review or smth?

Kermit

4y

I just think its a bit pathetic that you can write all of this about an album, but when someone elses opinion doesn't match your narrative, you start lashing out at them for the exact same critiques your essay has.

You bring embarrasment to the Kendrick Lamar community.

Scratchin Mamba

4y

I literally just said it's lame when ppl use difficult words without purpose lol i didn't even say anything abt the article as a whole u keep putting words in my mouth

U rly just came itt bc of that

Get off my d*** and stop derailing the thread

Kermit

4y

I'm sorry but you have made such a big deal over one reviewer using the word "antipop" and because you somehow don't understand this word (which i think is pretty self explanatory), you suddenly can't accept a rating of 7.6.
Art is supposed to be subjective, and it is closed minded people like you that ruin it for everyone else.

WRU

4y

good thread @op

krishna bound

4y

@Scratchin_Bandit

actual thoughts below;

I think from a detached standpoint, there's an interesting overlap here with the mythology of mainstream culture in general. I know you're coming at it from a more political angle, but I think there's another angle which I think is underexplored. Firstly, I don't usually like over-intellectualizing music or peoples' lives, but in regarsd to someone who's a celebrity making themselves a spectacle (inadvertently or otherwise), Kendrick has still put himself in a position to be looked at in this manner, at least in a comparative sense to others who's gone down the same path.

Arguably the core of western cultural mythos is the Hero's Journey, but it's rare that someone asks; what happens after the Hero's Journey? The Hero's Journey is often depicted as a cycle, but this because of the finite nature of depiction in art or media. In reality, when you extrapolate the Hero's Journey not from the art itself, but to the artist, you get a lot more interesting of a picture. Many artists go through a cycle in their music which alludes to the Hero's Journey - not just in music but any form of art. Eventually, it's after they meet their most lauded and praised albums that the real next stage of the Hero's Cycle - cynicism and loathing. In any great mythology, there's a reason the story always ends after the Return & Redemption; if someone "saved the world", would they not be responsible for then what the world has become after such? If a great hero has saved the world how can they feel anything but loathing for the inevitable imperfections of the world otherwise? Sometimes in a Hero's Journey, the journey is only about themselves, but the same thing applies - if you "save" yourself, would you not then feel responsible for what you've become down the line?

Kendrick's being wrapped up in idealism throughout the early part of his career I'm going to go out on a limb here - it's because he never go to see the end of Pac's Hero's Journey. He only saw maybe the first half. So the mythos of Pac will always be that he was destined to do great things had his life not been cut short. Contrast this with Kendrick's Christian beliefs and the importance placed on the individual within Christianity as well as the idea of attonement and such. Unlike someone like Pac however, whose mythos was continued largely toward the western equivalent of folklore and legend, Kendrick got his flowers while he was still here - he got to see what dropping an album everyone considered a culmination of idealism is, with songs like Alright which even began to be used at protests. Kendrick probably very quickly realized however following this, and following the sheer intensity of the amount of work and the level of talent, timing, luck, etc. that all went in the journey up to TPAB followed by the utterly absurd ebb and flow of social discourse in the years following - holy s*** this has done absolutely nothing of value besides satisfy people's need for entertainment. And let's look at this idea wthin the framing of like A Society of the Spectacle or a Baudrillard-type idea; it doesn't matter what the message was, or how artistic it was; the art would only ever be consumed as entertainment, and even the symbol within the culture will never truly evolve past the culture of which it has originated - it will never be "revolutionary" because of its origins. I contrast this with a similar idea - why the 60s failed to "really" change things beyond a further delve into "individualist" capitalism; did anyone think shows funded by Wallstreet Bankers & Investment Speculators (i.e. Woodstock) would ever truly be revolutionary, even if the artists believed they would be?

Now I'm going to say this from the outside, and from the perspective of how little Kendrick has involved himself in public situations - something which is obviously purposeful as it makes his art shine more. I think this genuinely broke him as he had trouble reconciling this with his idealistic view of what a person or art could achieve, but also with his own christian view of what individuals can do within the faith and the importance of such there. I think this is why the tone between TPAB and DAMN shifts so much - Kendrick starts dabbling with Israelite ideas and such, the idea that the reason his individualistic idealism isn't working is because it must be due to some greater force - like it must be a curse or something. But at the same time, Kendrick is obviously aware of the misgivings from TPAB - the idea that "okay well art didn't change s*** so I guess I may as well make it accessible". I've always felt TPAB is a hopeful album overall, but by contrast DAMN is more solemn and carries this idea of cosmic fate and things outside of the control of the individual.

But then, after DAMN, Kendrick really got to see the explosion of social discourse with stuff like Trump, COVID, BLM, etc. and I think him basically just going black out on all social was him being like "I can't take this s*** anymore". Because following that cycle, Kendrick's reflecting on himself and on how little this entity which his music has helped integrate into ("the culture") has really changed in any meaningful manner, and every piece of discourse is dictated more by arbitration and self-reference than anything actually important or meaningful. I think that's where this album comes in - he's gone through this whole cycle only to come to the conclusion not only does he literally not care anymore, but that he shouldn't have cared to begin with, because what he was trying to save or redeem was never redeemable or meaningful to begin with. I think that's why this album is also so all over the place emotionally and topically; at this point he's just writing for himself and doing what he wants and tracing his own thoughts and steps. He's saying "fuck it, consume my music if you want to. i don't care."

In the same way as I mentioned in the original release thread many other artists have done as well over their career - people like Mark Kozelek getting the point of cynicism with his fans, the media, and the world that his songs are just stream of conscious spoken word. It's not about making 15 minute epics meant to achieve a level of musical achievement anymore. It's just about them doing want they want, with the nagging cynicism of their history and the world around them. It doesn't matter necessarily if it's political, social, etc. - I think it's just clear that having gone through these journies, artists like Kendrick are tired. They know the critics have their opinions formed before they even put it out. They know what the fan reaction will be, and what "effect" it'll have on the world. So why double down on it? Instead, why not be self aware. It's a product. Listen to it if you want; I'm just doing what I want to at this point, feel free to join along.

Nessy

4y

2015: pac lives on
2022: pac lives on i guess but it’s not my problem