No one thinks that. What people want to know is why you care so much about the "idea" of liberal democracy. You basically say you just care about it because it's what the US says their strategic interest is. That's fine. Why do you believe it then? What benefit does this strategy bring you? Not the ruling class. You.

Why does democracy have to be valuable for countries to form a bloc around it? I don’t think authoritarianism is valuable (net) but I clearly acknowledge there’s a bloc being formed around it.

End of the day I think selling arms to ukraine is one of the best things America has done since the lend lease

Because what is the actual benefit of you supporting it?

Never said that. The US strategic interest is the same as every other country, economic well being and national security, and consolidating power where possible. You’re projecting a whole lot on to me here. I’m not arguing who the good guys are here (atm), I’m just telling you who the players are, what they are doing and why

"End of the day I think selling arms to the Mujahideen is one of the best thing America has done since the lend lease"

• Anonymous American Citizen, 1980's

What benefit do you get from supporting these arbitrary values instead of the best path for improvement for quality of life

I'm still waiting for this nazi Ukrainian power vacuum to emerge

Meanwhile Ukrainian faith in government is at its strongest ever and they're working on legalising gay marriage

Also unlike the mujaihideen the Ukrainians have managed to actually neutralise quite a lot of the Russian military, about 3 times the casualties the mujahideen incurred in fact

when someone pulls the "how are things bad? this country just legalized gay marriage." card you know the conversation's over

Try to re-read what I just wrote. we aren’t talking about who I support, we are talking about objectively what’s happening. FWIW, those two things are largely aligned in my estimation.

Now you're being disigenuous. You know why this conversation started, you simply can't give an answer because you realize it'd contradict what you support on a partisan basis otherwise

You realize even if Ukraine somehow survives it’s never going to be able to pay nearly all that money back and will be no less of an impoverished vassal state to the US than it would if Russia?

Do you want me to say I think liberal democracy is superior to Russian oligarchy or CCP rule? Yes, I do lol. Because of the results it has yielded, not because of the principles

Let me introduce you to the important principle of consent

The Ukrainians woukd now much rather America than Russia.

Also your whole point is stupid because being debt is not more of a loss of sovereignty than a puppet government, land seizures and cultural repression. It's not even close. That's way less oppression, if that even counts as oppression at all

Major false equivalence

Ukraine can also develop along the lines of baltic countries and prosper

Debt hardly makes a sovereign entity into a vassal

Yeah this was a f***ing stupid argument

My guy thinks debt is equal to being invaded, having your government murdered and your land seized + culture suppressed

it'll take a decade or so

thats how long the afghans took

the US is not a liberal democracy

most lobby-legal governments aren't

No, I'm asking you very specifically to give me a realistic answer as to why you just support literally everything the ruling class tells you as if there is an intrinsic benefit to doing so. These things are not interconnected but you're making it seem like they are. You do not have to support what the current government tells you to on on a literal basis just because you support the best outcome for the country you live in - your own QoL (and those around you) is not linked to these decisions. This is the entire purpose of this conversation - how these things emerged in political blocs are nowhere near as intrinsic to the socioeconomic status of the west as you think they are. This was the entire point of the earlier conversation I had with @TragedyGhaddafi about US aid/weapons. Do you honestly think if we stopped aid or foreign involvement Russia would steamroll all of Europe in WW3 and then prevent them from trading with us?

Afghan and Ukrainian society are phenomenally and drastically different. In many ways. And no, to pre empt what everyone is going to say, it isn't just ethnicity or culture either

The mujahideen at their lowest were way proportionally bigger than the neo nazis in Ukraine, who are altogether a tiny group who are now mostly dead

It's an apples and oranges comparison

fwiw i agree with you the "neonazi power vacuum" argument is complete cope. however the "they just legalized gay marriage" argument is cope for the same reason

Also how is being psrt of a big fascist state any better than becoming a small and weak one? Either way in this scenario the far right wins

Agreed. Thank you

It's more likely that Ukraine will turn out like Poland, but even that is far more socially equitable than russia