Cudderwalks

5y

But a revolution took place in Germany

And the german communist party was one of the largest parties when Hitler took over that’s why he had so many communists imprisoned

Enpax

5y

This wasn’t a “pro capitalism” thread, I only have a problem with central planning. But it just so happens that many socialists believe that allowing the market to operate on a large scale is unacceptable under socialism, which is why I find myself opposing socialists. I believe that if governments actually invest in their people and not waste away their funds on expensive but worthless projects or their personal bank accounts, then many poor countries right now would not nearly be as such

Enpax

5y

This wasn’t a “pro capitalism” thread, I only have a problem with central planning. But it just so happens that many socialists believe that allowing the market to operate on a large scale is unacceptable under socialism, which is why I find myself opposing socialists. I believe that if governments actually invest in their people and not waste away their funds on expensive but worthless projects or their personal bank accounts, then many poor countries right now would not nearly be as such

eye contact

5y

are you aware of market socialism

deadacc

5y

there are socialists that believe in market socialism. i don't think every sector should engage with markets because markets promote competition over growth instead of competition over benefit to society, but i haven't heard any extremely convincing arguments against markets in certain sectors.

and yea i agree. the issue is that the government and private sector would never allow that to happen unless it was profitable, which is f***ing ridiculous because we already produce enough to house and feed everybody in the US 1.5x over and the scarcity is an issue of profitability rather than an issue of resources.

Enpax

5y

Market socialism is certainly better than Soviet style socialism but the high unemployment found in yugoslavia does not make it a suitable alternative to our current situation. I believe we should just let automation take its course and allow excess profits generated from the displacement of workers towards providing a wage floor in which every citizen is guaranteed enough to allow them to have enough food, shelter, and the most essential provisions for living including stuff like tv and the internet

deadacc

5y

yea im not a big market socialist either. i do think the concept of "just letting automation do its thing" is an issue if its tied to complacency because the means of production are still owned by the capitalist class.

so if the people who control society and all of our necessities as well as all of our commodities can now begin to control the relationship between workers and owners without the leverage of the working classes labor actually being needed to produce goods, then if society doesnt drastically change to a socialist model we're all going to be living in much much worse conditions than we do now with an even steeper wealth inequality with even less opportunity to improve standards of living

newgodlevel

5y

"On top of my earlier response, inequality in the Russian Empire was about the same as inequality in the United States now"

lol think carefully about what it is you're saying here

Enpax

5y

I assure you if automation does displace most jobs (and I keep using “if” terminology because back in the 1800s people assumed that growing technology would displace workers when instead it created more new jobs than it replaced) but if automation really does take away everyone’s jobs, then it’s certain the masses will not allow the capitalist class to not guarantee a life for them. By then a UBI will be a bipartisan proposal and public efforts would turn to either voting out any politician that supports it or by sabotaging machinery. Either way, I don’t see a world with like 70% unemployment and everyone just has to fend for themselves.

But in this future where the government ensures that everyone has at least a basic income to survive, then there will still be entrepreneurs ready to utilize their education and skills to provide better products and services using the increased technology or something like that

Cudderwalks

5y

But a revolution took place in Germany

And the german communist party was one of the largest parties when Hitler took over that’s why he had so many communists imprisoned

Enpax

5y

I know it’s largely because of personal reasons, that’s why I need people to not be socialists because adopting failed economic theories from the 20th century are not an adequate way to address the shortcomings of policy in the western world. Also communists are very insufferable so it’s important to prevent any more from joining, even if it’s just one. I’m not afraid of a communist revolution, I’m afraid of more people on the fence becoming attracted by socialist posts on ktt and becoming terrible posters due to it

newgodlevel

5y

"failed economic theories" based on what?

none of the central assumptions underpinning neoclassical theory are even close to being met, and yet we still cling to it like scripture.

Only 3 countries have successfully landed on the Moon, 2 of them Communist. All things considered, that's pretty impressive

newgodlevel

5y

"failed economic theories" based on what?

none of the central assumptions underpinning neoclassical theory are even close to being met, and yet we still cling to it like scripture.

Only 3 countries have successfully landed on the Moon, 2 of them Communist. All things considered, that's pretty impressive

deadacc

5y

i just dont see why at that point would we even want to compromise with just bare necessities of living if we could afford to grant everybody the quality of life and equal opportunity to live fulfilling happy lives.

that also assumes a scenario where a not-pitiful UBI is established which you'd think would be an obvious given the material conditions but Bernie has been fighting for UBI and free healthcare since idk the 70's? and look how far we've come w those.

Enpax

5y

Chinas not communist

Enpax

5y

We haven’t come far with that because people don’t feel like they need it. If it were to pass where the lives of the masses was predicated on some income they could not otherwise get, then there’s no way a UBI doesn’t pass in that case

Enpax

5y

Also their failed economic theories based on the fact that they failed to, by their own virtue, raise living standards for the citizens of their countries relative to non centrally controlled governments. You keep bringing up the failings of 1980s neoliberalism as if I brought it up, like this isn’t about uplifting laissez faire economics, it’s about recognizing the endemic shortcomings of centrally planned economies

newgodlevel

5y

brother why are you disparaging Communism if you haven't read any books on the subject?

Communism isn't something you declare overnight, it's a goal that is worked towards. Abolishing private property and the state requires the development of industry. China and Russia were essentially feudal economies when their revolutions began, you can't just skip industrialisation

newgodlevel

5y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_Union_referendum

"Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any ethnicity will be fully guaranteed?"

The referendum's question was approved by nearly 80% of voters in all nine other republics that took part.