I'll let the others itt tell you more but I do know Haz is 100% better read than Hasan

Yeah that seemed pretty clear, I guess it’s just Hasan’s take is how I’ve always heard Marxism described but the other dude seems to know what he’s talking about more but is making points I haven’t really heard from marxists

How does Hasan describe it

yeah nationalism and no self-autonomy is only good when it's the red flag doing it

Why are "socialists" making claims to justify empires? Aren't you supposed to do away with it, after all? Where is the dissolution of state power, as Mao intended, doesn't this just cede more and more power to the empire?

It honestly speaks a lot about Hasan if Infrared is better read than him.

Infrared would make Destiny look like Adam Smith. His content is hilarious because of how f***ing stupid it is, and if he's trolling, he's doing a great job.

You’re right, we should let capitalism and capitalist states continue to exist because people want it to

...?

I mean China is a capitalist state, in a symbiotic relation with the West. State capitalism and nationalization is not socialism. I mean Leninism is literally based off of Bismarckian social democracy, in which Bismarck himself said that, it was effectively a "bribe of the working class" so they would stop building their own libertarian socialist dual-power and worker-owned institutions, as they were successfully doing. Lenin dissolved the Soviets before the Civil War broke out, so he could institute his power onto the workers.

China is still capitalist at the end of the day, and no nation-state can be a savior.

MLs are basically red SocDems from my observations.

when y'all gonna stop quoting his word salad

How is it word salad, fam?

I mean this is just basic factual research with history backing it. State socialism will never work, and the most it can offer is just neutered social democracy with one-party representation and a perpetration of the class system and wage slavery that Marx wanted to free us from, with a new bourgeoise class, no matter the "class consciousness of the leadership".

It's always been reformism of the previous capitalist system at its core.

You can technically take this view of socialism being an authoritarian state/"dictatorship of the proletariat" as ran by a class conscious intellectual vanguard, all the way back to the Jacobins, because Marx and Engels were both inspired by them in their theories of revolution.

theanarchistlibrary.org/library/rudolf-rocker-the-soviet-system-or-the-dictatorship-of-the-proletariat

That is all that can be said of dictatorship, since it is not a product of socialist thinking. Dictatorship is no child of the labour movement, but a regrettable inheritance from the bourgeoisie, passed into the proletarian camp to guarantee its “happiness.” Dictatorship is closely linked with the lust for political power, which is likewise bourgeois in its origin.

__

Dictatorship is one of the forms which the state, ever greedy for Power, is apt to assume. It is the state on a war footing. Like other advocates of the state idea, the supporters of dictatorship would—provisionally (?)—impose their will upon the people. This concept alone is an impediment to social revolution, the very life’s blood of which is precisely the constructive participation and direct initiative of the masses.

__

Dictatorship is the denial, the destruction of the organic being, of the natural form of organisation, which is from the bottom upwards. Some claim that the people are not yet sufficiently mature to take charge of their own destiny. So there has to be a ruler over the masses, tutelage by an “expert” minority. The supporters of dictatorship could have the best intentions in the world, but the logic of Power will oblige them always to take the path of the most extreme despotism.

__

Our state socialists adopted the notion of dictatorship from that pre-bourgeois party, the Jacobins. That party damned striking as a crime and banned workers’ organisations under pain of death. The most active spokesmen for this overbearing conduct were Saint-Just and Couthon, while Robespierre operated under the same influence.

2036

edit: @sniper decided to delete that post

youtu.be/qxOeWuAHOiw?t=9111

"silver bullet, it's a medication that goes and just kills exactly what it's supposed to kill (in the body) but for capitalism that's not the best medication to actually cure people.

capitalists want to keep people, they want to keep you sick because that's how they keep making money"

• K.O.W., 2020

I blocked Sniper the minute he claimed China taking back Hong Kong from the UK was colonialism

The fact he comes in here with his know-it-all, holier-than-thou sneer is honesty very insulting.

Michael Heinrich doing a Webinar at 2PM EST this Sunday the 12th.

Love my socialist gang itt

Yeah, then they'll keep on pushing it back, it's like when tele-evangelists predict the end times

Making claims for empire is still odd for socialists

People deserve their autonomy from the state, just like the American territories and even the state of Hawaii

Seriously though, he just chose that number because it "sounds cool"

It's not that serious

Infrared is a funny guy, I'll give him that

My favorite FBI informant who probably gets checks from Fairfax for whatever new PSL/CPUSA recruit decides to hand them their info.

Can't fellow socialists not come to discourse between each other?

It's a thread for socialists after all.

yeah okay b**** lmfao