the title is socialism thread not marxist-leninist thread. If you want a ML exclusive thread than title it appropriately ig.

i think nothing youve said in here was out of pocket

thank you! i’m trying to have a good faith conversation and nothing more.

i would add keeping in mind that ML's progressing with their own experiments deserve critical support as it is still unclear whether they have truly failed or not

I’m hesitant to do so because several ML experiments resulted in a highly authoritarian state. Now of course, it would be fallacious of me to say that’s all a ML project can be. I just haven’t seen any ML’s talk about how this could be avoided, if they so desire to.

i’m also a big believer in democracy and i don’t know if the average ML feels the same.

it's hard to say exactly as the soviet experiment lead to the development of the Dengist style current governing style of the CPC, which - while arguably a standard state-capitalist state until the past 10 or so years - under Xi's lead has utilized the theory of MLism correctly and as things continue it will be hard to really say whether they have failed until they have.

but reading Chinese theory I am convinced that the CPC is still on the correct ideological path to a successful socialist experiment and it'll take a while to truly see whether it pans out.

i do think, while rhetoric alone is meaningless, being presented with both correct rhetoric and correct action should be taken into account when condemning china.

there's other here's who will be able to explain this to you better but democracy is a very arbitrary term in the modern age and solely having democracy but nothing else is hardly a just society.

I am very curious as to why you think china is on the path to being a successful socialist project.

well, sure. I don’t think democracy fixes everything but I’d make the argument it’s a necessary component of a more free society.

Do you like Chinese democracy

I don’t consider them to have a democracy.

? Whats democracy to you then lol

you think they are?

the elected representatives of the CCP are pre-approved by the CCP itself. The people of china do not dictate the direction of their country.

the cpc actively exercising its power over the bourgeois is ultimately the main determining factor. there is no realistic possibility of the bourgeois within chinese society to wrangle enough power to prevent their submission to the cpc.

if there was any possibility of that happening none of the actions taken by china in the past couple years would have ever been able to pass without meaningful resistance. the dengist way is to increase the productive capabilities of china as much as possible in order to increase the standard of living and poverty alleviation as much as humanly possible, while not giving up the reins to the state up to the bourgeois for destructive exploitation.

all the economic actions of china have correctly followed this line of thought and while corruption within the party - the only possible avenue for the failure of the chinese experiment - was running rampant for decades, it is clear now that Xi has correctly purged the party of corrupt corporate interests and has already developed and acted on the plans for the continued development of infrastructure, sustainability and production to realize communism.

And that’s great. I’m a big fan of purging corporate corruption. I just don’t see the socialism here? The proletariat are in control of very little. They even made independent unions illegal.

Of course I think they are.

Citizens elect local officials who continue electing all the way to the top and their opinions matter to the cpc (proposed things by citizens get serious consideration.)

You're the one who had the crying Kim avy right? No disrespect but vaush is rotting your view of socialism

Why are you still stuck on the Vaush thing? Me and him are both libertarian socialists, ofc our viewpoints are similar.

I also.. don’t think you’re correct? Why would the CCP need to pre-approve candidates that already agree with the direction of those currently in charge? They’re maintaining a status-quo and using this sham of a electoral system as a guise.

yea it's ultimately a issue of dialectics which is hard to pinpoint in a leninist interpretation. you can interpret the cpc being the will of the people (with an ~~90% approval rating) pushing back against bourgeois interests of labor expropriation being a true material interpretation of the dialectics of chinese society or you can see the "insulated" (which is arguable of course) politburo forcing policy onto the mostly indifferent masses.

ultimately to me what's important is that China is not engaging in imperialism, is not pursuing capitalist models of growth, and is actively seeking to improve the material conditions of the people as well as having a correctly aligned socialist constitution means that they are good in my book. semantic arguments of whether or not the workers own the means of production aside.

i'd much rather a world where China exists as it is now than one that lacks it. even as somebody sympathetic to syndicalistic tendencies.

Because he's wrong about just about everything and you come itt echoing his weird ass arguments.

Wym "pre-approve" anyone who joins any party is "pre-approved." Of course they're maintaining the "status-quo," it's their country.

Okay, so you gave me a lot to address here

1. I don’t think an approval rating says much. obviously this isnt the most charitable example, but Hitler also had a high approval rating.

2. you don’t think China engages with imperialism? I’m lost on this point. I think there’s a mountain of evidence at this point that says otherwise.

3. I think setting boundaries for corporate intervence is great but they’re still a capitalist country. America would be similar in terms of economics if lobbying was banned.

I’m also echoing Noam Chomsky’s arguments. all 3 of us subscribe to the same ideology. i’m sure you agree with most of what the other ML’s here say?

And you’re misinterpreting what i’m saying. You can never have an anti-establishment candidate running in the CCP. Why give people the option to vote if your elected official isn’t allowed to derail from the CCP’s current agenda? how is that democracy?

China not engaging in imperialism or pursuing capitalistic models of growth.

Ok.

yeah, i’m confused on that one. very curious to read what he says.

Yes I do agree with most MLs itt. Also, as an alleged socialist, why would you want an anti establishment candidate to have the potential power to ruin the strongest communist nation?