Feb 1, 2022·1 reply
Nortmy biggest gripe with ML’s is their advocacy for the state-owning the means of production. You can sell me on a vanguard party but I just don’t see how we’d be accomplishing socialism here.
If the workers control the state, why can't it be owned by the state?
The problem with market socialism is that even though the workers within the firm may not be exploited anymore and have more direct control is that production is still driven by market mechanisms.
Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNortIt hasn’t. But I don’t see why it couldn’t be done? The USSR, China, etc could’ve accomplished this. That’s why I question how you could consider them socialist systems when the state itself owns the means of production, it doesn’t have to.
I’ll say it again. The state successfully was co-opted and used by the proletariat to forward a proletariat agenda in both China and the USSR. This is agreed upon by basically every communist who isnt from the West and many academics within the west. Albert Einstein himself corroborated this viewpoint. Western communists still don’t get that the political dynamics of liberal market structures and electoral idk are inherently flawed
The state can’t be decoupled from the means of production because both will be owned by the ruling class (the proletariat), and the state is a manifestation of power which is sourced from the means of production.
To have the means of production directly administered by the state prevents the decoupling of proletariat power of the stage from the means of production, and thus allowing potential capitalist influence from arising within the means of production
The entire reason we even need to resort to a strong state structure is because capitalists will happily do the same since they benefit from the structure and can weaponize it to destroy any socialist state which decided to transition to communism too early, and as a result decentralized their power structure
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 replyScratchin Mamba
If the workers control the state, why can't it be owned by the state?
The problem with market socialism is that even though the workers within the firm may not be exploited anymore and have more direct control is that production is still driven by market mechanisms.
because your vote will be filtered throughout the various hierarchies and structures within the state. With direct control you know exactly what you’re voting on and how it’ll be implemented.
market mechanism’s are fine for my dream transitional state. With the worker’s at the wheel and the state serving and protecting them, i don’t have much of a problem.
doesn’t the command economy have a horrible track record?
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·2 repliesamericana
I’ll say it again. The state successfully was co-opted and used by the proletariat to forward a proletariat agenda in both China and the USSR. This is agreed upon by basically every communist who isnt from the West and many academics within the west. Albert Einstein himself corroborated this viewpoint. Western communists still don’t get that the political dynamics of liberal market structures and electoral idk are inherently flawed
The state can’t be decoupled from the means of production because both will be owned by the ruling class (the proletariat), and the state is a manifestation of power which is sourced from the means of production.
To have the means of production directly administered by the state prevents the decoupling of proletariat power of the stage from the means of production, and thus allowing potential capitalist influence from arising within the means of production
The entire reason we even need to resort to a strong state structure is because capitalists will happily do the same since they benefit from the structure and can weaponize it to destroy any socialist state which decided to transition to communism too early, and as a result decentralized their power structure
i don’t see how state-ownership over the means of production is necessary in protecting a socialist system from capitalist influence. The state could serve & protect a market socialist system without owning it.
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
because your vote will be filtered throughout the various hierarchies and structures within the state. With direct control you know exactly what you’re voting on and how it’ll be implemented.
market mechanism’s are fine for my dream transitional state. With the worker’s at the wheel and the state serving and protecting them, i don’t have much of a problem.
doesn’t the command economy have a horrible track record?
But that could be solved with more direct democracy and participation by the workers in the state, also there could be mechanisms in place that allow workers to have a say at their particular workplace
The problem with market mechanisms is that it comes with all the problems of the profit motive: competition between firms is going to mean that workers are going to push themselves to overwork themselves, damage done to the environment because externalities don't count in one's calculations for profit generation, economic crises etc.
Yes there were inefficiencies with the command economy (although vastly overstated; the USSR had a faster growing economy than all countries on earth with it's centrally planned economy with the exception of like less than 5 asian countries). But those proglems can be solved with cybernetic planning
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
i don’t see how state-ownership over the means of production is necessary in protecting a socialist system from capitalist influence. The state could serve & protect a market socialist system without owning it.
If the proletariat own the means of production, they therefore own the state. Directly coupling the two allows for efficient administration and security in the face of capitalism
The state doesn’t “own” a thing. It’s simply coupled to the economy by the proletariat ruling class because it allows for an effective and efficient administration of the means of production by the proletariat who own the state
And you need that sort of effective and efficient administration when every capitalist hegemony is out for your throat while you’re simultaneously trying to bring socialism to other states
Market socialism can potentially come after the ideas of capitalism and hierarchical means of production are eradicated
- Feb 1, 2022·1 reply
Like look at Cuba, it has more democratic and direct participation from workers than the USSR did and I would say that's one of the main reasons that it was able to survive
Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNorti don’t see how state-ownership over the means of production is necessary in protecting a socialist system from capitalist influence. The state could serve & protect a market socialist system without owning it.
just replying to this post for now i’ll update it with much more info once i’m done work in 5 and half hours but the state owning the means of production has played a role in developing socialism in china within the agricultural sphere
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022Scratchin Mamba
But that could be solved with more direct democracy and participation by the workers in the state, also there could be mechanisms in place that allow workers to have a say at their particular workplace
The problem with market mechanisms is that it comes with all the problems of the profit motive: competition between firms is going to mean that workers are going to push themselves to overwork themselves, damage done to the environment because externalities don't count in one's calculations for profit generation, economic crises etc.
Yes there were inefficiencies with the command economy (although vastly overstated; the USSR had a faster growing economy than all countries on earth with it's centrally planned economy with the exception of like less than 5 asian countries). But those proglems can be solved with cybernetic planning
how could democracy be more direct through the state?
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 replyamericana
If the proletariat own the means of production, they therefore own the state. Directly coupling the two allows for efficient administration and security in the face of capitalism
The state doesn’t “own” a thing. It’s simply coupled to the economy by the proletariat ruling class because it allows for an effective and efficient administration of the means of production by the proletariat who own the state
And you need that sort of effective and efficient administration when every capitalist hegemony is out for your throat while you’re simultaneously trying to bring socialism to other states
Market socialism can potentially come after the ideas of capitalism and hierarchical means of production are eradicated
Your first point makes a lot of sense to me but I just don’t think that’s happened. The USSR, China, etc. It seems as-though the state is the authority over the proletariat, and not the other way around. The proletariat is working beneath a hierarchy that has elected party members amongst themselves, and claiming they’re your representatives. I find that to be a sham of democracy.
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022Scratchin Mamba
Like look at Cuba, it has more democratic and direct participation from workers than the USSR did and I would say that's one of the main reasons that it was able to survive
how does it work in Cuba?
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 replyWomanpuncher69
just replying to this post for now i’ll update it with much more info once i’m done work in 5 and half hours but the state owning the means of production has played a role in developing socialism in china within the agricultural sphere
i look forward to the update
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
Your first point makes a lot of sense to me but I just don’t think that’s happened. The USSR, China, etc. It seems as-though the state is the authority over the proletariat, and not the other way around. The proletariat is working beneath a hierarchy that has elected party members amongst themselves, and claiming they’re your representatives. I find that to be a sham of democracy.
The state can only be an authority if it’s power is enshrined upon it by those that make it up. It’s very important to have class consciousness in a socialist population so that this enshrinement is a conscious and democratic decision and not created through complacency and deceit
The population of the USSR was regularly educated on Marxist theory and made aware of how the state was a manifestation of their collective power and not a dictatorial power enforcing their position upon citizens
Once again, Albert Einstein, the CIA, many academic circles, and communists themselves upheld this stance that it was not a state dominated dictatorship but rather a dictatorship that found itself emanating through the state and originating through the proletariat
cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·2 replies
“Political scientists characterize the political system of Cuba as non-democratic and authoritarian. It is a single-party authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted and all forms of dissidence are repressed. There are elections in Cuba but they are not democratic. Censorship of information (including limits to internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom. According to human rights groups, human rights violations are systematic and severe”
Excerpt from wikipedia (i know). Would those more knowledgeable about Cuban politics say this is a fair description of how things work over there?
Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort“Political scientists characterize the political system of Cuba as non-democratic and authoritarian. It is a single-party authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted and all forms of dissidence are repressed. There are elections in Cuba but they are not democratic. Censorship of information (including limits to internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom. According to human rights groups, human rights violations are systematic and severe”
Excerpt from wikipedia (i know). Would those more knowledgeable about Cuban politics say this is a fair description of how things work over there?
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
“Political scientists characterize the political system of Cuba as non-democratic and authoritarian. It is a single-party authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted and all forms of dissidence are repressed. There are elections in Cuba but they are not democratic. Censorship of information (including limits to internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom. According to human rights groups, human rights violations are systematic and severe”
Excerpt from wikipedia (i know). Would those more knowledgeable about Cuban politics say this is a fair description of how things work over there?
Wikipedia
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 replyamericana
The state can only be an authority if it’s power is enshrined upon it by those that make it up. It’s very important to have class consciousness in a socialist population so that this enshrinement is a conscious and democratic decision and not created through complacency and deceit
The population of the USSR was regularly educated on Marxist theory and made aware of how the state was a manifestation of their collective power and not a dictatorial power enforcing their position upon citizens
Once again, Albert Einstein, the CIA, many academic circles, and communists themselves upheld this stance that it was not a state dominated dictatorship but rather a dictatorship that found itself emanating through the state and originating through the proletariat
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf
How much say did the soviet citizenship have in their government? I know you sent a diagram but it’s confusing without proper context and description.
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022americana
Wikipedia
(i know)
- Feb 1, 2022
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
How much say did the soviet citizenship have in their government? I know you sent a diagram but it’s confusing without proper context and description.
They participated in local councils that set rules within their jurisdiction, alongside electing representatives for regional councils. These representatives then elected members for provincial councils and in turn the national council
Some of the republics within the union were more autonomous to account for their ethnic minorities. Many councils could vote to recall and re-elect representatives if they felt like they weren’t representing their positions properly.
Participants had to be members of the Party which usually meant being educated on political theory to understand the function of their system. But any citizen could participate in their respective council
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 reply!https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2aMsi-A56dsp apollo
haven’t finished the video yet but so far this describes a political process completely different than how other sources would describe it.
what’s the truth?
- Feb 1, 2022Nort
haven’t finished the video yet but so far this describes a political process completely different than how other sources would describe it.
what’s the truth?
The west has been waging an 80 year long political propaganda war. There is reason to distrust damn near any commentary the west has on any political affairs that they are involved in
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 replyamericana
They participated in local councils that set rules within their jurisdiction, alongside electing representatives for regional councils. These representatives then elected members for provincial councils and in turn the national council
Some of the republics within the union were more autonomous to account for their ethnic minorities. Many councils could vote to recall and re-elect representatives if they felt like they weren’t representing their positions properly.
Participants had to be members of the Party which usually meant being educated on political theory to understand the function of their system. But any citizen could participate in their respective council
where did the candidates for the provincial council elections come from? Were they sponsored by higher administration?
- Nort 💫Feb 1, 2022·1 reply
Also I appreciate you guys for taking the time to answer my questions and discuss this with me. As stated before, I have pretty severe ADHD and I struggle with reading. I’m sure it got frustrating for some of you when I couldn’t fully comprehend the points you were making. I’m not big on books so youtube videos and conversations help a lot.
- Feb 1, 2022·1 replyNort
where did the candidates for the provincial council elections come from? Were they sponsored by higher administration?
they were usually voted in from amongst their constituents and weren't presented by the party
