necromancer

4y

Yeah, please link me that reading material again, and yeah I agree, as an anarchist, I want to tear down every power hierarchy (obviously the state is the biggest example) but I mean it in every way, and its why I've kind of had a mini-epiphany in regards to things like "cancel culture" and identarianism, because to have a big movement happen, you need inter-group/intersectional solidarity. I feel like all the left has ever done in recent times is not destroy hierarchy but reinforce some type of hierarchy of oppressions, when we should all address them horizontally and educate each other instead of being extremely sectarian. This is what made past liberation movements work so well, but I feel we are forgetting that, in our current social media climate where it isn't about fellowship amongst ourselves and debating about actual revolutionary potential, but just people doing clout wars and trying to "out-woke" each other. I'm fine with things like APOC and anti-racism, that's cool, but we mustn't forget that with these autonomous group, we should work for the same goal in mind of universalism.

krishna bound

4y

much of the theory which originated marxism is based on the idea that humans are inherently selfish, its a major part of why they believe fundamental societal structures are exploitative. the basis of marxism is hyper-individualism which is essentially indistinguishable from selfish will

i know its a whole 'no true scotsmen' thing, but online leftism in the current era is really its own thing disconnected from reality. it really has nothing to do with actual marxist/post-marxist theory even if certain people claim otherwise. most online leftism is more a result of the tradition of western academia which itself follows a lineage of anti-aristocracy rather than pro-communism. Once you notice the pattern that modern leftism is based on simply appropriation of bourgeoise decadence to the masses - basically just jealousy of aristocracy - rather than the abolishment of it, everything makes way more sense

space0cadet

4y

the basis of marxism is hyper-individualism which is essentially indistinguishable from selfish will

you talking about marx's concept of human nature / human essence here?

www quakerboy us

4y

i’ve never seen @Synopsis respect anyone in the left sphere

SCOUSER

4y

Well maybe America is stupid asf but elsewhere in the world liberals believe in economic liberalism, being of course socially liberal but also pro market, free trade, limited government. Whereas social democrats come from a socialist tradition and are supposed to be more concerned with income redistribution and economically to the left of liberals.

Liberals and social democrats are generally in different political parties in countries with multi party systems. I know this is even true in Canada with the Liberal Party and NDP for example

Buckleys Angel

4y

It’s literally a social trend. Being an internet leftist is a fad. They don’t care about changing s***, they just care about trying to appear intelligent on social media.

You will be hard pressed to find any lefty that actually wants to organize or make any earnest effort to enact change rather than bicker and argue and present some kind of performance of what they think they should believe.

krishna bound

4y

its a social trend because like i said earlier in the thread modern millennial leftism is based on being jealous of rich people's decadence and culture and wanting that for themselves, rather than abolishing them altogether. This is why it not only tends to be so derivative from the top down of mimicking and/or adapting to the beliefs of institutions or rich people, but also why it's so easily commodifiable to begin with.

also @BA the last part about bicker vs doing anything is true but its really not exclusive to leftists by any means, thats really any political ideology that doesnt hold power within the institutional overton window. have you ever had a quick glance at the insane right wingers on twitter (not the trump boomers, like white nationalists or christian theocracy people)? I can guarantee you they also agree over nothing. Hell, even people like An-Caps, who really do not have that complex of an ideology, if you look at their subreddits its just constant infighting over what is and isn't the NAP, etc. when you cant actually actively enact anything in a direct sense, then for the vast majority of participants, all you can do is argue and police each other.

Synopsis

4y

Literally what

www quakerboy us

4y

i’ve never seen @Synopsis respect anyone in the left sphere

ARCADE GOON

4y

That's because you think the "left sphere" starts with Hillary Clinton and ends with Bernie Sanders

www quakerboy us

4y

say one name in the contemporary left that you think what they do is good

Synopsis

4y

Like who even is the contemporary left lmao

www quakerboy us

4y

say one name in the contemporary left that you think what they do is good

Walter Black

4y

So many of them will just bicker on and on about who to accept as part of their "side" and talk about revolutions

Newsflash a******s: there is no revolution

Most people don't actually give a s*** about changing the entire structure of our system u dingus

They just want what's best for them, and hey, I don't blame them, I do too

But instead of bringing these people on their side, the left would rather alienate them more and more

First liberals aren't good enough, than social democrats aren't good enough, and finally, it won't be good enough unless you believe in a bullshit communist utopia which one hundred percent won't work and exist lol gtfo here

I said my piece

Walter Black

4y

Lol you're the biggest offender of this you delusional clown

Synopsis

4y

But why

gabapentin

4y

ofc western leftism is a strategy to effect class mobility in the guise of class war, but your second paragraph gets at why modern "champagne socialists" are more effectively driven by social proof than, say, the 60s new left (who were equally resentment-driven)

the arguing and denouncing and crabs-in-a-bucket behavior is literally how increases in status are instantiated

it's really no different than any subculture -- even on this forum, people score points "dunking on" each other

with the technological advances of the last thirty years, never before has the ability to succeed in a zero sum status game subculture been so easy

a jealously of the social register has always powered Western leftism, but now we can build our own social register on twitter or discord or signal with blackjack and hookers trans rights and eating the rich, and the need to actually k*ll the romanovs to improve one's status has never been lower

krishna bound

4y

I mostly agree but I wouldn't say all of western leftism is about class mobility. I think a lot of it is cultural too hence why it caught on with youth past the sexual revolution and social liberalization (not sure what other term to use - social "openess" or whatever), which you know, just ironically seemed to be in line with long-term corporate market interest. But yeah I more or less agree. I don't think any of the idiotic exterior politics make the theory any less valid in a vacuum though, i feel the same about a lot of writers/philosophers which right-leaning people tend to praise as well.

gabapentin

4y

class mobility may not be the correct term, or at least not fully explanatory

it's more like class larping

upper/middle class kids aping the luxury beliefs of the rich (like lifestyle Marxism) powered by a noxious cocktail of jealously, resentment and desire

and this filtered down to everyone as you allude to

for instance, the sexual revolution and Griswold v. Connecticut allowed everyone to f*** like nobles did

so i think the cultural effects are inextricable from class envy because American notions of class rely on signifiers rather than material power

americana

4y

Chairman Xi

krishna bound

4y

Oh okay, i mean this is basically just identical to what I said earlier in the thread and in the AOC thread about western leftism being about jealousy of aristocracy rather than abolish of it, this goes deeper than just america too, that lineage goes all the way back to the french revolution and its reactions (before anyone gets on my ass, yes obviously "leftism" did not exist back then but the protoypical/primal roots which stayed in culture to eventually define it)