ASAKI

4y

china as a socialist state? ridiculous. post-Deng capitalist restoration scrubbed any notion of a socialist foundation or path towards a communist entity.

it's an authoritarian regime backed by capital and the bourgeoisie.

KimJongUn

4y

the Chinese GDP is $12.2 trillion, but suddenly it means something that their are billionaires?

its not "safe to say" anything, you have to actually do a***ysis which you refuse to do in favor of some lousy common sense argument. like you're literally arguing right now that five-year plans arent still in effect when its very easy to look up that they still are. why not just learn about China instead of being wrong, bro?

Enpax

4y

There are billionaires in China like Ma Huateng. Nobody but you is willing to dispute this. And there a five year plans in China, just like there are yearly plans in Iran and there were in Nazi Germany. I never said the government didn’t have plans for the economy, I said they don’t direct them like how they did when Mao was in power. Simply having the government give plans for what they want doesn’t make it a socialist country, especially when many companies are free to conduct business as the market dictates. Stop talking weirdly to me and just address my points and leave it at that

KimJongUn

4y

I explained why it is a socialist country though using the scientific definition created by communists and you just invented your own criterion for why it isnt. I guess if you wanna invent new goalposts to win every argument thats fine, it doesnt keep you from being wrong in the end though. but by your own logic, the Roman Empire wouldve been capitalist, or really any early feudal society with large markets (was the Southern Song also capitalism?).

modes of production are defined in a specific way, here's your homework.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/apr/21.htm

edit: here's a bonus from the US Dept. of Commerce

https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/Non%20Market%20Economy%20Issue%20Brief.pdf

KimJongUn

4y

which DSA pamphlet did you plagiarize this from

for real though, can you show me where the capitalist restoration happened, and if it did, why didnt it look like what happened when capitalists took hold of the former socialist states? why was it that poverty levels, particularly in the rural areas, fell so drastically when the opposite happened in places like Somalia and Cambodia? why does the state still control most capital intensive industry when the opposite happened in places where capitalism was "restored"? also if China's "capitalist" model is so great why hasnt it been utilized in other third world capitalist countries like Russia and India?

this argument just doesnt hold up and you cant chalk up China's success to some "good" form of capitalism. i'm not gonna get into you calling the country "authoritarian" though because thats just science fiction for liberals and not a real argument.

Enpax

4y

No, by my argument the Roman Empire wouldn’t have been socialist. Neither would the feudalist society, you see you’ve invented this argument that if a society isn’t socialist, then it must be capitalist, even though all I’ve said is that these countries weren’t socialist. But yeah, China’s closer to capitalism then socialism at this point because it conducts enterprise in a manner reminiscent of current capitalist countries. If the communists would have been so okay with free enterprise, then why did Stalin move to end the NEP

KimJongUn

4y

damn bro, can you read

Enpax

4y

You said I would say the Roman Empire was capitalist. All I said so far was that China isn’t socialist. Many modern socialists don’t even think modern China is socialist, ktt members included

KimJongUn

4y

i said using your logic the Roman Empire would be capitalist because it contained markets, currency, commodity production, and private property. but the Roman Empire wasnt capitalist, was it?

honestly im just talking past you at this point, please just read Lenin and then maybe read Losurdo or Samir Amin on China/the CPC, the consensus among communists globally is still that China is a socialist country and the CPC still participates in Solidnet; what you think you know has reached its limits.

Enpax

4y

You’re saying I can’t read but you’ve managed to misread my posts for 2 pages so let me spell it out. I’M NOT SAYING CHINA IS CAPITALIST BECAUSE IT HAS FREE MARKETS, I’M SAYING ITS NOT SOCIALIST BECAUSE OF THOSE THINGS

aside from that, I think it’s capitalist because companies in said free market are large enough to be publicly traded and provide goods to a variety of different customers across the country and the world while using privately held capital in employing people and competing with each other for consumer shares. If you think China is still some kind of socialist country, even you can admit it the state socialism of the Soviet Union and the Maoist era

Benito Mussolini

4y

Yeah, I see a lot of people use it to imply that capitalism is on its way out.

KimJongUn

4y

petty commodity production in the USSR by volume was greater than the planned economy, was the USSR capitalist? this argument doesnt hold up and i think you're just arguing with me to avoid reading.

KimJongUn

4y

"China is not currently a market economy and is not on the path to become one in the near future. In its 2016 Report to Congress on China’s WTO Compliance, the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative found the Chinese government maintains extensive controls over foreign investment, which, in tandem with industrial policies, restrict the ability of foreign investors to participate in key sectors of the economy or demand major concessions as a price of admission. The government maintains—and is even strengthening—its control of the means of production through central and provincial state-owned enterprises, and the state exerts extensive control over resource allocation."

• US Department of Commerce, because im tired of this and im sure OP is sick of this derailing the thread

Enpax

4y

All this says is that the Chinese economy isn’t a completely free market and restricts private investment. That doesn’t change the fact that Chinese companies are large, publicly traded entities that employ the use of capital and have business dealings and investments in foreign countries. I’m not even arguing that this is as a bad thing, it’s been essential to China’s poverty reduction

skycity

4y

I think it its not, only would happen in the moment for ex. the machines develops a super AI who decides to break the corporations and banks systems

KimJongUn

4y

none of that makes china a capitalist country, you literally said it yourself in your last comment, commerce and markets are transhistorical phenomena. lets end this pointless argument.

KimJongUn

4y

which DSA pamphlet did you plagiarize this from

for real though, can you show me where the capitalist restoration happened, and if it did, why didnt it look like what happened when capitalists took hold of the former socialist states? why was it that poverty levels, particularly in the rural areas, fell so drastically when the opposite happened in places like Somalia and Cambodia? why does the state still control most capital intensive industry when the opposite happened in places where capitalism was "restored"? also if China's "capitalist" model is so great why hasnt it been utilized in other third world capitalist countries like Russia and India?

this argument just doesnt hold up and you cant chalk up China's success to some "good" form of capitalism. i'm not gonna get into you calling the country "authoritarian" though because thats just science fiction for liberals and not a real argument.

KimJongUn

4y

i mean, you cant speak on socialism because you dont know nearly enough about it and refuse to learn anything. china, laos, and vietnam are still socialist because the commanding heights of the economy remain in the hands of the working class, which dictates the overall economic logic of the state.

lets put it another way.

the roman empire had monied currency. the roman empire also had proto-industrial commodity production and even had primitive forms of property law. but nobody calls the roman empire capitalist. why is that? because all these other things were dictated by the overall logic of the slave economy, which was where the commanding heights of the roman economy were. you have to actually use a class a***ysis to figure out where the economic base is.

ASAKI

4y

your argument of the state owning the private industry makes little difference. just because the government owns a large swathe of private capital, entails them to be state capitalists. and who says that China's system of capitalism is "good" or "bad"? that's not how an economic system works-- it sounds like a high school kid's argument.

you regard everyone who argues with you as some kind of brainwashed westerner, when it really just seems like you've fallen into Chinese propaganda. just because the side of the coin changes, doesn't mean it's any more valuable.

listen, I'm not saying the otherwise. china's institutions are deeply rooted in socialism, the educational system preaches socialist beliefs, and a good set of qualities of its economic system are socialist. but that does not disperse the capitalist qualities that it also inherits. i'm not going to go balls-deep into this convo because this a kanye west fan forum, but just because the CCP wishes to move towards a communist state (which I don't really believe) does not mean it is a socialist country as of right now. it could be in maybe a decade, but it is not currently.

as Lieberthal claims, the PRC absolutely practices fragmented authoritarianism as well, but that's a convo for another day.

KOLLAPS

4y

Explain to me how the Chinese economy is good for the people of China.

KimJongUn

4y

There's literally an entire field of economics dedicated to that, go read.

KOLLAPS

4y

Throw me the titles/links nigga Im trynna educate myself

KimJongUn

4y

· edited

for the record, 1/3rd of the country lived in poverty in 1978. your question is kinda goofy though, just compare China to somewhere like India or Indonesia and the results speak for themselves.