CLB Fractions

3y

its meant to treat each state as equal 50 states 2 senators each.

thats not undemocratic

also most americans do not "support center left policies"

also if you were to fet rid of the senate you would need to change the way the whole country is ran.

Young D

3y

The country was not even remotely close to as urbanized when the Constitution (and therefore the Senate) was created. The Senate was created with the assumption that a huge portion of the population would be living in rural states.

Same thing with the creation of states. The rules for what should be considered enough population to constitute an entire new state when people were moving Westward in the 1800s was not at all “future proofed”. If it was, there wouldn’t be 2 separate Dakotas lol.

And to your point about the country not supporting center left policies, that’s true. It would be more accurate to say that most people in the US favor outright leftist policies.

CLB Fractions

3y

look up how the usa was formed... the states came together etc its a unique history behind it.

If you were to abolish senate then you should abolish states as well.

I know you said economically center left and thats false... you need to learn to read

Young D

3y

The country was not even remotely close to as urbanized when the Constitution (and therefore the Senate) was created. The Senate was created with the assumption that a huge portion of the population would be living in rural states.

Same thing with the creation of states. The rules for what should be considered enough population to constitute an entire new state when people were moving Westward in the 1800s was not at all “future proofed”. If it was, there wouldn’t be 2 separate Dakotas lol.

And to your point about the country not supporting center left policies, that’s true. It would be more accurate to say that most people in the US favor outright leftist policies.

Maartins

3y

Nigga really trying to defend the utility of an institution that was created when people OWNED people and showered like once a month

Maartins

3y

Ik how the US was formed

Considering canada has provinces, france has provinces, Australia has states so that’s just plain false wtf r u talking about

How tf will states disappear if senators disappear thats my preferred policy prescription but not even what we’re talking about. We’re talking about adding more states to take away the outsized voices empty, sparse “red” land has on American legislation.

Just because you say something doesn’t make it true tf kind of debator are you? Show me two economic conservative policies that have/had majoritarian support, the trump tax cuts?

I cant even name anymore past that cus modern economic conservativism is so intellectually bankrupt policy wise, all they can talk about is cultural issues like blm, immigration, police and dr seuss.

Meanwhile medicare for all has like 50% NATIONALLY, over 60% including just independents and dems. A public option is even higher

15$ Minimum wage outperformed both biden AND trump in Florida. Trump carried the state by like 52% but the provision passed with voters by like 60%. Thats a red state. Nationally last poll i saw had it around 70% among all voters

Same thing for free college, child credits, labor policies so on

CLB Fractions

3y

when did i defend it? read...

Shabazz999

3y

so the 700,000+ residents of DC don't deserve representation in congress? and lobbyists tend to be transplants who have no connection to the rest of the city.

the very simple solution would be to create a separate enclave where the federal government will continue to function and give the rest of the city statehood

CLB Fractions

3y

u clearly dont if ur comparing states to provinces...

also i never said most of usa is conservative? nice strawman

also most americans do not support medicare for all they support universal coverage which is different.

Maartins

3y

· edited

I just saw yr post

It still doesn’t make sense. I support one legislative body like a parliamentary system as well cus i think they favor the voices of the people better.

The house democrats are the perfect example like they are solidly center left, while senate dems are more center (speaking from a global perspective what would be considered left, center left and center)

It’s actually been amazing to see. People love to hate nancy pelosi and i dnt share the same politics as her, im more to her left but the house passed a minimum wage, the labor bill PRO act, the john lewis voting act etc. The house has regularly been more progressive and representative for the past 4-7 years and that’s how it should be in a democratic system

US senators are too detached from people, not to mention the arcane senate rules like the filibuster that exacerbate the detachment

Saint Aquinas

3y

If people really cared that much about representation, they'd just add DC to Maryland. They don't for a reason

Maartins

3y

· edited

We care about representation AND diluting the power of empty pieces of land lmaoo what No one is denying that. It’s not a cynical take, it’s literally a save democracy take, people calling for this are very open about why it’s needed

Can u imagine what 20 yrs from now when urbanization is even worse how lopsided things will be. The 50 republican senators ALREADY represent 40 million less people? That doesn’t bother you a little? Even on sentimental level when thinking about the health and validity of our democracy?

Maartins

3y

Provinces are literally just states man

There is no difference except some systems they have more or less autonomy. France for example is extremely centralized but canadian provinces actually have slightly more autonomy than us states. They control their medicare for all systems separately, and quebec has immigration autonomy for foreigners but other than that on tax laws, education etc they operate virtually the same way American states do

There is absolutely nothing that implies eliminating senators would eliminate states

Saint Aquinas

3y

No, they don't.

That's the whole point of the power the lobbyists have.

Or we can leave things the way they are now so your side doesn't get 2 more senators which is really what this is about.

CLB Fractions

3y

I partially qgree with what you are saying. I just think we should change how the legislative branch is entirely.

instead of for example one voting district getting one representative where the minority in that district are not represented. have a national vote. for example

50% of usa voters support blue
40% support red
5% green
5% yellow
then based on vote % distribute seats

I think this is a better way for more voices to be heard while being democratic this would also allow for more parties

Maartins

3y

We care about representation AND diluting the power of empty pieces of land lmaoo what No one is denying that. It’s not a cynical take, it’s literally a save democracy take, people calling for this are very open about why it’s needed

Can u imagine what 20 yrs from now when urbanization is even worse how lopsided things will be. The 50 republican senators ALREADY represent 40 million less people? That doesn’t bother you a little? Even on sentimental level when thinking about the health and validity of our democracy?

Maartins

3y

Ye i see yr point

In a perfect world maybe but rn extra states are the most viable reforms

CLB Fractions

3y

redraw the states lmao

but i think its fine as is because u only need 51 votes in the senate to end fillibuster and pass whatever you want. i think it should be higher tbh

Shabazz999

3y

"my side" my guy idgaf about democrats or republicans and anyone in this sxn can attest to that. if the capital of the country was oklahoma city and it's residents wanted statehood i would still support it. this country was founded on no taxation without representation right?

Maartins

3y

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/11/6/21550979/senate-malapportionment-20-million-democrats-republicans-supreme-court

I see yr logic but yr not extrapolating correctly. This methodology used what party the senator caucus with then extrapolated that to population of the state

So lets say south dak elected two republican senators (bcus those voters lean conservative) then the whole population of tht state is represented by them even tho the whole population didnt vote for them

I think what yr trying to do is go by vote ratios democrat senators won vs republican senators but we’re talking representation of people and ideas

So using that logic a state like cali that has more people than canada or state like ny with 20 million people hving 4 senators between them u quickly see how it adds up. Democratic senate delegations simply just represent more people and voters quantitatively

CLB Fractions

3y

Yea i understand that but i think its faulty to look at it that way. ideally congress would be split by how the people in the country are thinking.

lets say 2 republicans won texas senate yes they represent the whole state but the 40% democrats there arent having their voices heard at all.

Saint Aquinas

3y

"no taxation without representation" does not inherently mean direct representation given the history of our country.

And of course they want statehood. That's more power. Doesnt mean it makes sense to grant it to them. A capital is designed to be just that. Nothing more.

Maartins

3y

Eh either way when taking in voter suppression and lack of participation the ratio still isnt like the biden trump election, which was a 51-46 win

Only 50 plus percent of Americans vote. In Canada it’s 74%, Australia it’s 90% plus. Most other developed countries are in those ranges

And no the 56% of currenr voting americans still isn’t representative enough bcus we know non voters skew lower income and minority, in other people who’d vote dem or parties who are left of dem (a large percent of current dem national election voters would vote for a party who are left of dems if it were a viable as things already are)

I really do think the current republican coalition is a minority one that wouldn’t hv any real path to a majority in a real democratic and fair system

Using that logic that’s why id argue the senate representation ratio is a better metric bcus it places republican ideas at around 35%-40% max. Which also tracks with trumps approval rating throughout his term