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  • Apr 9, 2021
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    cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-50-q/clip/15836161-doc-mckinney-the-weeknds-house-balloons-changed-sound

    Since this is a pretty lengthy interview I'm only going to paraphrase parts that are specifically about The Weeknd/House of Balloons. The full interview is fantastic. I recommend giving it a listen.

    Tom Power: Doc, welcome to the show.

    Doc McKinney: Thank you for having me, Tom.

    T: I was reading that you - it's the character of an artist's voice that you listen to first. What did you hear in The Weeknd's voice that caught your attention first?

    D: Man, I think with Abel, he just had a cool voice, he had a cool delivery. Obviously the lyrics were completely different, the most angsty R&B I've ever heard. I was just like, "this is crazy." It wasn't just his voice, it was the whole thing.

    T: What do you remember from that first meeting?

    D: Mmmm as Abel is, super charming, great guy. You know, my friends Adrien Gough and Cirkut, shoutout to them, were like "Show him the stuff you've been doing!" so, getting in a room with him, you know he's just got a very...you know when they say you get into a room with an artist or a star and they just have that energy from the get-go. He was super wide-eyed and you know wanting to learn and just be the greatest artist. But he really was a great student, and obviously a great teacher, so from the beginning it was just a very awesome tennis match of hitting ideas back and forth. He was down to try most of what I wanted to try and vice-versa, so it was just super inspiring and a very inspired time for me musically.

    the two go into a brief history of Doc's Esthero history

    T: I was reading, you said when it comes to your collaborative approach, you don't try and make an artist's vision. You try to dream their dream. When you first met The Weeknd did he already have a vision?

    D: Yeah, I mean him and Zodiac started this thing down that road together and then shortly after split up. But Abel's a brilliant guy, very talented, so all I'm trying to do is highlight your natural God-given gifts and hopefully the collaboration musically is something that has that magic to it. Who made Thom Yorke? It's the same type of concept.

    T: Well, I'm excited to dig into this kind of music let's take a listen. plays snippet of House of Balloons/Glass Table Girls

    T: That is "House of Balloons" the title track from The Weeknd's debut mixtape. I'm speaking with Doc McKinney who produced that and other cuts on the mixtape. What do you remember from making that particular cut with The Weeknd?

    D: That one I think was super special. That was a beat that I had for a while I think I wanted to give it to Santi Santigold back in the day or something. But, he was like, "Yo this is crazy", and I was a fan of Siouxie and the Banshees. Working on that track, for us it was a real game-changer because I think both of us came out of that song like "I don't know what happened..." because the end of that song Glass Table Girls literally that beat was made on the fly like he hadn't even finished the vocal half but I do just remember going like "This song is, I don't know, 25 minutes long, I don't know what's going on here." But Abel was like "I just want to rap at the end! Do something real quick so I can rap at the end!" So I was like "Okay I'm just gonna start using these 707s!" And that was the song. Then, Illangelo got involved. It was probably our Joshua Tree. You know, that ? with U2 where they spent half the budget on that one song? I feel like that was that song for House of Balloons.

    T: I mean, the buzz was pretty quick as soon as it came out. When was the moment you realized it was resonating?

    D: Um, I realized, and this is just to throw it back to the great artists before The Weeknd and Drake in Toronto, but really when I played the music for some of my OGs and people that I came up with.

    T: Like who?

    D: Like Abacus, who is a long time friend and one of the greatest house producers in the world. And then Ali Shaheed Muhammad from A Tribe Called Quest who is a good friend of mine. So when I can play it for the OGs like that then I'm like "Oh okay." From the beginning it's great because they're not mincing words or getting anything twisted. On a global stage, was I think the first Coachella performance. Did I have any idea he'd be playing the Super Bowl? Absolutely not.

    T: I want to go back to something you said when I asked about Abel's voice, you said it's the juxtaposition of the music and the lyrics and I gotta say even listening back to it now it's STILL striking what you hear. I listened to this yesterday, and here was this kid who was completely unknown and he was a kid singing about s***and d****; this dark, moody, nihilistic kind of disturbing sometimes...but you said he was pretty chill. What was he tapping back into to sing about those things in that way?

    D: Well I mean with the vocal production aspect, I mean the stylings of the vocal when I first started working with him. I mean, for any fans the first couple of songs like Loft Music stuff like that. But, I tried to explore other vocal things with him and I think his newfound love for nuwave stuff, and the brit - you can hear the brit-rock stylings on Wicked Games and stuff like that. That is stuff that we went after, that was us trying to expand the range and play with different characters so there wasn't, just so it had more depth. And at the time, you ask what he's tapping into, he was experimenting with quite a few things, we tapped in in different ways like Hendrix was I guess. This is his "dream place", right? So he's very good at just tapping in. It's like the same thing they were saying about Heath Ledger playing The Joker, playing these dark characters, right? It's like how do you get in and get out of it? And for the whole time we were doing House of Balloons, all that stuff, he was a young kid doing his thing but man. He just seemingly could go in and just jump into character. I'm not saying he wasn't being real or whatever, but just meaning that like a lot of great artists, like an actor, they just tap in.

    T: It's so captivating, like I said you had made a lot of really great music up to this point. You were a great student of music up to this point. In your experience up to that point, was The Weeknd's dark, nihilistic approach anything you'd ever seen before in a black R&B artist?

    D: No, I mean that was...you hear this in metal or other things, but that type of darkness? No. It was really compelling, but at the same time I do feel like within the music, the juxtaposition of it was, a lot of times the music at certain points had a hopefulness to it in places, which is weird. I had sampled Cocteau Twins Cherry-Coloured Funk, that's like one of my favorite songs of life. To me there's beauty to the core of Cherry-Coloured Funk so to hear him singing the lyrics to The Knowing about the vindictiveness of the thing he was gonna do, over something to me that's so beautiful is wild.

    T: And it led to that sense of mystery, too. Take a listen to this. plays a snippet of Wicked Games

    T: Doc, how do you listen to that and NOT want to know more about the guy? And that's the thing he didn't let you know anything! There was such a mystery around him. People didn't know what he looked like, people didn't know if he was just one person or a bunch of people. Even to this day he does almost no interviews, really lets the music do the talking. What was his rationale for taking that approach at least in the beginning?

    D: I mean, I don't know. The one thing was, was that he always wants to be very focused, he was very committed to the music. I think also too, he's very calculated but he was never not gonna not do that. He understood certain things about marketing and PR and stuff like that. I think once the narrative was like "It's this mysterious thing!" So once Pitchfork and everybody else was writing it, what's the point? You know, it's actually kind of fresh.

    T: I know. Maybe it's just me but I love watching Prince interviews. Cause I get to see this also mysterious guy talk about how he did it. You know what I mean? I feel like I learn a lot as an artist from it. I do wish sometimes that I heard a bit more from him about how he sees this stuff.

    D: Yeah, it seems he's definitely ahead of the curve on that and definitely was the best thing to do. It's a slower reveal, you know Prince later on started doing more interviews. And you go, "Man, when he's talking he's really dropping gems and it really means something." Versus just following him around a grocery store on TikTok. No disrespect to TikTok, just sayin.

    T: laughs We must not disrespect TikTok or I'll be chased out of this building.

    D: laughs You're like "I can not lose my fanbase over a Doc McKinney interview."

    T: laughs Yeah. It's interesting to see how your relationship with Abel has moved on, you know what I mean? You guys continued to work together, especially on the Starboy record, which you executive produced with him. But is there anything about that time of House of Balloons that you miss?

    D: Yeah, I miss Carlo (Illangelo) being involved. Illangelo, (Carlo), and myself haven't done anything together since. Sorry, since Thursday which was the last mixtape that I did, and that really sucked. So that's something that I hope will happen in the future. And I know a lot of people go, "Oh they want to hold onto that moment, it's the nostalgia" or whatever, but to me, these are two of the greatest creatives I've ever worked with. So, that part of it. And just the actual making of the music, you know the reckless abandonment of it that was there in the beginning. I think that kind of excitement is great for - and freedom - is great for creativity. So, I do feel like I miss that and those times in general, but yeah. That’s really it.

    T: How do you feel the mixtapes held up?

    D: Um I think you know with the re release of the thing, and getting to hear them back to back - not that I haven't before - I think they’re great songs man. Hearing them played at the Super Bowl it’s just, to me, it’s the same thing as Breath from Another. When I hear it, it sounds like it could have come out today. Not saying it’s because my production is futuristic which, I like to think it is, but I’m just saying. But I do think that, to me, they’re great records rooted in real artist integrity, and really trying to be the best creatives they can be and me trying to be the best producer I can be. I think we’re lucky with both House of Balloons and Breath from Another that they both held up amazing, and I think will continue to hold up.

    T: Well maybe this is a good way to close things off, it’s been lovely talking to you. Back then, The Weeknd was looking to you for mentorship. But are there lessons you’ve learned from him since then?

    D: Oh yeah, definitely. I think one of the biggest things is “trust the people around you.” That was a big one, trust the people around you and trust yourself the most. When I say that, it seems like that would be an obvious thing, but I think like, even myself that’s like a working out thing. You really need strong people that are doing it to remind you in your life, and I think he was one of those people. So it’s just one of those, YOU gotta make it happen and you gotta stick to your vision, you know what I mean? I’ve learned a lot, but I do think that’s one of the biggest things. Whether it was a lesson per se, or just a hellified reinforcement, stuff like that.

    The interview ends with High For This.

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    I understand that a lot of you don't like listening/reading to lengthy things. But if you are a fan of The Weeknd's or House of Balloons, I highly recommend either reading or listening to the interview. It gives such a detailed look into the creation of House of Balloons and some of the thoughts that went into it. I'll put some highlights here.

    • HOB/GTG was originally ~25 minutes long, apparently Abel just spazzed in the booth and had Doc craft something up so he could rap over it.

    • Says what he misses the most of mixtape days was working with Abel and Illangelo at the same time. Says he wants to work together as a trio in the future.

    • Says Abel was similar to Heath Ledger playing The Joker during the recording of House of Balloons. He was able to flawlessly dip in and out of character when necessary.

    • Ali Shaheed Muhammad (ATCQ) was one of the first people Doc showed HoB to

  • In for anything related to Doc

  • Apr 9, 2021

    I’ll def read HOB top 10 rnb project of all time imo

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    edited

    Damn Ali from Tribe was f***ing with it.
    Also shout out to Siouxsie and the Banshees fans.
    25 min version hope it leaks just to hear Abel free styling.
    Yup it all makes sense now why Abel sound was reminiscent of Cocteau Twins . Man had that dream aesthetic to his music

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    2 replies

    Beyond what he says in the interview

    Do we know WHY Doc and Illangelo haven't both simultaneously worked on a record together SINCE Thursday?

    Doc had a lot of production credits across Starboy and Illangelo had placements on After Hours, seems strange to me why Abel has resisted uniting them both once again considering we saw how legendary the outcome is on HoB & Thursday tapes

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    edited
    RIP_Actavis

    Beyond what he says in the interview

    Do we know WHY Doc and Illangelo haven't both simultaneously worked on a record together SINCE Thursday?

    Doc had a lot of production credits across Starboy and Illangelo had placements on After Hours, seems strange to me why Abel has resisted uniting them both once again considering we saw how legendary the outcome is on HoB & Thursday tapes

    Doc did tweet once about Starboy sessions something along the lines "too many cooks in the kitchen.."

    Edit: I could only find a quote from KTT1

    @docmckinney Nov 22. To many cooks in the kitchen makes the food nasty. 10 retweets 18 favorites

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    1 reply
    RIP_Actavis

    Beyond what he says in the interview

    Do we know WHY Doc and Illangelo haven't both simultaneously worked on a record together SINCE Thursday?

    Doc had a lot of production credits across Starboy and Illangelo had placements on After Hours, seems strange to me why Abel has resisted uniting them both once again considering we saw how legendary the outcome is on HoB & Thursday tapes

    No idea. I know nothing concrete has ever come out except for that “too many cooks in the kitchen” tweet

    But that doesn’t seem to deter him much anymore considering he worked on “Over Now” with about 7 other writers/producers on one song lol

  • great thread

    thanks for sharing

  • Apr 9, 2021
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    1 reply

    How did Weeknd even link up with these producers pre house of balloons was he building hype in Toronto in 2010

  • Apr 10, 2021

    Ill x Doc x Abel soon

  • Apr 10, 2021

    Amazing stuff tho,thank you Thomas for this

  • Apr 10, 2021
    Undisclosed
    · edited

    I understand that a lot of you don't like listening/reading to lengthy things. But if you are a fan of The Weeknd's or House of Balloons, I highly recommend either reading or listening to the interview. It gives such a detailed look into the creation of House of Balloons and some of the thoughts that went into it. I'll put some highlights here.

    • HOB/GTG was originally ~25 minutes long, apparently Abel just spazzed in the booth and had Doc craft something up so he could rap over it.

    • Says what he misses the most of mixtape days was working with Abel and Illangelo at the same time. Says he wants to work together as a trio in the future.

    • Says Abel was similar to Heath Ledger playing The Joker during the recording of House of Balloons. He was able to flawlessly dip in and out of character when necessary.

    • Ali Shaheed Muhammad (ATCQ) was one of the first people Doc showed HoB to

    I couldn’t tell if he literally meant 25 minutes or if that was just a figure of speech

    Also, add that Ali shaheed Muhammad f***ed with house of balloons that’s pretty wild

  • Apr 10, 2021
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    Undisclosed

    No idea. I know nothing concrete has ever come out except for that “too many cooks in the kitchen” tweet

    But that doesn’t seem to deter him much anymore considering he worked on “Over Now” with about 7 other writers/producers on one song lol

    The too many cooks in the kitchen tweet was a response to max martin popifying half of BBTM before the whole album had to be redone cause of the beef with doc and s*** kinda hit the fan. Girls born in the 90s turning into acquainted and the beat forcibly being changed is a real time example of that.

    There’s never been any coNformation if that ktt1 thread about the Seattle album becoming bbtm is valid. But it makes sense 1000%. It’s also openly speculation not a dude trying to pretend he’s an insider. I don’t think doc cares about who he’s working with, I think he hates not actively being a part of the creation process 100%.

    This is the thread in question kanye​tothe.com/threads/abel-recorded-a-whole-drugged-out-album-with-doc-in-2014-and-scrapped-it-for-mj-levels-of-fame.3668321/#post-237923281 and after just coming back from Seattle, that album would’ve been like an echos of silence kiss land hybrid considering how dark that city is. Imagine what The Weeknd would’ve been like if kiss land got its dues when it first dropped. S*** wasn’t meant to be though I guess

  • Apr 10, 2021
    925Andrew

    The too many cooks in the kitchen tweet was a response to max martin popifying half of BBTM before the whole album had to be redone cause of the beef with doc and s*** kinda hit the fan. Girls born in the 90s turning into acquainted and the beat forcibly being changed is a real time example of that.

    There’s never been any coNformation if that ktt1 thread about the Seattle album becoming bbtm is valid. But it makes sense 1000%. It’s also openly speculation not a dude trying to pretend he’s an insider. I don’t think doc cares about who he’s working with, I think he hates not actively being a part of the creation process 100%.

    This is the thread in question https://www.kanye​tothe.com/threads/abel-recorded-a-whole-drugged-out-album-with-doc-in-2014-and-scrapped-it-for-mj-levels-of-fame.3668321/#post-237923281 and after just coming back from Seattle, that album would’ve been like an echos of silence kiss land hybrid considering how dark that city is. Imagine what The Weeknd would’ve been like if kiss land got its dues when it first dropped. S*** wasn’t meant to be though I guess

    Maybe we already got track(s) from that 2014 album. "Try Me" lyrics were first presented in a concert in 2014

  • This man is one of the goats of songwriting/producing/programming/musicianship/sound design

    Not only did he do this tape and Esthero, he produced Res’s fantastic debut. 😳

    He was a co-writer of a few lp’s. .

    Guess who also co-wrote 4 tracks on the lp above? Ali Shaheed Mohammad. 😭

    He also did a few tracks for Debi nova and he produced a ep by this artist trouble Andrew & a duo called wild belle. 🤔

  • Apr 10, 2021

    Great read, this dude is something special for those instrumentals on HOB.

  • Apr 10, 2021
    interstellarflyin2

    How did Weeknd even link up with these producers pre house of balloons was he building hype in Toronto in 2010

    The MTV interview for the 10 year anniversary of HoB covers that!

  • Apr 10, 2021

    Really inspiring stuff, a lot of gems

  • Apr 10, 2021

    classic from thomas

  • Apr 10, 2021
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    1 reply

    Who made Thom Yorke

  • Apr 10, 2021

    house of balloons being for santiagold makes so much sense...

  • Apr 10, 2021

    learnt about breath from another

    listening now s*** is a classic

  • Apr 10, 2021

    @Thrice you might be interested in some of this

  • Apr 11, 2021

    bless up