Buryly

4y

This is why islamic laws need to go

Charcoal Baby

4y

Wtf I thought Egypt had a revolution that stopped all this bs

Buryly

4y

This is why islamic laws need to go

Mel

4y

People in this thread think the strict interpretation of Islam that's mainstream because of the Saudi/Fundamentalists influence is the only correct version.

It's one synthesis of a few Islamic scholars used by governments to easily seize power and be authoritarian.

Imagine calling a Muslim ITT Islamophobic for criticizing the law.

• Wonder what y'all would say to the gay Iranians suffering right now who criticize faults in fundamentalism but are still muslims.. are they islamphobic?

• What about Lutherans critical of the Catholic church when it had considerable power? Where they 'whatever' phobic towards Catholics in government?

Oblivion X

4y

I'm muslim and I didnt like the post. Because it implies it was quote on quote, Islamic law instead of a legal system that is based off a strict interpretation by specific countries.

Now imagine someone reading that and takes the post as, "oh well I guess this an actual law that is presented in the Quran" instead of an interpretation by a nation. It promotes myths about islam that isnt beneficial at all

Charcoal Baby

4y

Wtf I thought Egypt had a revolution that stopped all this bs

Buryly

4y

I respect people for practicing their own religion, but making that s*** on everyone is wack b. Look at Turkey, their judicial system is mainly islamic but they don't implement those laws on everyone there.

Sharia law needs to be erased and binned pronto

Mel

4y

I'm not 100% sure of what your criticism is tbh but based on my idea maybe this clarification helps explain my point

Islam has as nearly a centralized authority as Catholicism. So the lines I think you're trying to say exist are actually pretty blurred between nation and religion. The modern Sunni religion has its roots in authoritarian government very intersected with certain schools of thought.

As for as Sunni goes -- the Saudi state exists because Ibn Saud secured the support of tribal imams by pledging to promulgate wahabi/salafi ideology in their governance. Without the support of imams, their conquering of the gulf region wouldn't have been possible. Their influence and ownership of the holiest sites in Islam shaped the entire mainstream religion after the 3rd Saudi state. The UE and other gulf states followed their lead/implementation of salafi thought.

I speak on this as an Arab Christian aware of how Islam is omnipresent in every aspect of society. I'm less concerned with what people think the Quran actually says vs what the imams and their buddies in the Saud royal family want people to actually think it says.

Mel

4y

I'm not 100% sure of what your criticism is tbh but based on my idea maybe this clarification helps explain my point

Islam has as nearly a centralized authority as Catholicism. So the lines I think you're trying to say exist are actually pretty blurred between nation and religion. The modern Sunni religion has its roots in authoritarian government very intersected with certain schools of thought.

As for as Sunni goes -- the Saudi state exists because Ibn Saud secured the support of tribal imams by pledging to promulgate wahabi/salafi ideology in their governance. Without the support of imams, their conquering of the gulf region wouldn't have been possible. Their influence and ownership of the holiest sites in Islam shaped the entire mainstream religion after the 3rd Saudi state. The UE and other gulf states followed their lead/implementation of salafi thought.

I speak on this as an Arab Christian aware of how Islam is omnipresent in every aspect of society. I'm less concerned with what people think the Quran actually says vs what the imams and their buddies in the Saud royal family want people to actually think it says.

dundis

4y

call up sheikh yerbouti to free this woman

Sixty 5

4y

this is a cultural thing lol

don't blame the religion

Oblivion X

4y

Islam does not have centralized authority especially to the degrees of the Catholics. That is not true. That fact that islam is split between sunni and Shia disproves this.

But besides that all of what u wrote has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

The way that these middle eastern countries interpret the Shari'a law and incorporate and base their laws is not an accurate representation of the Shari'a law at all and should not be conflated as the same thing.

So one saying islamic laws should be gone is a dangerous statements cause now ur having people who dont know anything about islam assuming that in islam this type of thing that the girl got locked up for is permitted. Islamic laws =/= laws in middle eastern nations. This type of statement only promotes myths about islam and the quran that arent true.

Mel

4y

Their interpretation is actually what matters most because they have dictated where the religion has gone and how it's been practiced by many. To disagree with that is to ignore history. I'm not just throwing random statements out here.

Even for modern examples take a look at the rise of Islam in Indonesia/Malay and romanticization of Arab culture/adoption of their interpretations. It's actually a huge issue there for many people Muslim and non. Bangladesh is another example as well and their adoption of the honor killing practice from hadiths.

Sunni and Shia being split has nothing against my point. Shia has even a more centralized authority than Sunni with the Ayotollah dictating both best practices if faith and being the true leader of Iran. Sunni Islam throughout most of time had Caliphate/Caliths who both ruled over Muslim world on governance and religious authority. After the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, Saudis havr had head religious advisors who need to approve of anything that someone like MBS wants to do before he implements a new policy.

All of what I'm saying is to show that Nations law and the religion are not very separate at all. You saying the interpretation is wrong doesn't change anything because the reality is how the religion is practiced. We see it dominate any government because leaders like to use Salafi thought as a tool for power.

Oblivion X

4y

But ur making the assumption that all muslims practiced and have the same interpretation as they do in the middle east which is not true, so difference in interpretation is what matters. Because I and many other dont practice the religion the same way they do in middle east.

And ur point was that islam is as centralized as Catholicism. Literally how can that be true if there are two major factions that differ in authority.

And that's my issue, ur conflating the way that the middle eastern interpret their religion and culture to use as a basis for their laws as the religion itself. Far TOO many muslims disagree with the middle eastern interpretation of the quran to make that statement

Mel

4y

Nah, I'm not assuming that/or anything man lol. I've known muslims all my life and know political situations in my own country and other muslim majority ones.

Of course there is disagreement in a religion as big as Islam. You shouldn't take what I am saying as a universal truth that Salafi/Traditionalist faith dominates every nation/religion. But you can't deny the extent of influence it has. When largest portion of Islamic scholars/imams are from the gulf, it's pretty much undeniable. Like i said look at Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, and Pakistan as well. These are the ones making up the biggest % of Muslims too and their the most influenced by Traditionists/Salafi.

As far as the centralized argument, how does Sunni vs Shia make it untrue at all? It doesn't show Islam as having decentralized authority, because they're practically independent each other in how practice their faith and in their communities. They only share Mecca and both have their mosques and pilgrimage sites separately.

It would be true if it was decentralized if the Ayatollah and Sunni Imams governed the same exact people while also having separate authority but they don't. Sunni and Shia themselves have two very centralized authorities on religion (Shia much more so). It would only be decentralized if the same population looked at both as positions of authority but they don't. Sunni and Shia live and practice their faiths separately.

I can understand your issues and reasons, but i think you're underestimating the stuff I'm talking about.

Oblivion X

4y

Those other countries are also influenced by it's own culture, and yes religion does influenced culture.But it's not derived from the quran directly and you shouldn't take it as such.

I feel like your overlooking and diverted from my main point of how it's dangerous to say "Islamic laws" as if the laws practiced by those countries is something that is directly found in the quran.

And I dont see how u dont see how the fact that islam being split in 2 factions is an example of islam being decentralized. You have a better argument if u say specifical shia islam is more akin to Catholicism.

But to say Islam as a whole is as centralized as Catholicism is literally contradictory as two sects of islam follow these two different "centralized figures".

Like fr look how Catholics look to the pope all around the world and compare how Muslim, shia or sunni, look to those figures.

Mel

4y

I mean some of them are but many are from hadiths which are very significant to Islam too. That's where the most prevalent interpretations of traditionalists and their influence have a lot of power/play.

I don't think anyone should taken the post that way btw. Because I know the poster was a Turkish Muslim, I didn't. Could have been worded better I guess like you said.

It's still centralized because Shia and Sunni exist completely separately and their authority is separate. Shia's centralized authority is obvious while Sunni isn't -- it shows though in geopolitical ways. It's not comparable to Catholics and Protestants. The influential religious scholars between Shia and Sunni dictate to their own populations, they don't share authority so it's not decentralized.

The point is further proven when you look at Muslim majority countries and their legal/power structures but that's another thing.

It's not a criticism of Islam mind you btw.

Oblivion X

4y

Bro come on now. How can the WHOLE religion of islam be centralized when there are TWO MAJOR factions. Sunni and shia are still under the umbrella of Islam it's not a separate religion just different sects. That's almost like saying political power in america is centralized, or saying christianity is centralized.

The definition of centralized is literally this

"concentrate (control of an activity or organization) under a single authority"

You can try and argue that shia islam specifically is centralized or sunni Islam is specially centralized, u would lose that argument, but you cant argue that Islam which is made up of BOTH sects is centralized. Because by definition it literally cant be

Mel

4y

It being under the umbrella of general Islam doesn't matter. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all under the same umbrella of Abrahamic religions and share prophets, so what?

Shia and Sunni communities live and practice their faiths separately, you can call both Muslims but the divergence is pretty big and long existing. You can have modernist Islam ideas take hold in Sunni Islam without Shia changing at all as example.

The split itself isn't arbitrary like in Christian denominations. It's real and is shown in differences of how pray and other important things. They don't even live together in the same countries in the same communities.

Because the vast majority of Muslims are Sunni and you might live in the West, you'd think you can go well a Muslim is a Muslim. That's not true and not how it is or how it's seen in the places/regions where Shia actually live.They are seen differently, treated differently, and you can't blanket them as all Muslims just like Sunnis and say it's decentralized.

The existence of the sects does not imply there is decentralized authority, because Shia and Sunni themselves don't see themselves as together at all. (In places where they actually are close to eachother).

Then again you don't agree that either have a centralized authority so I guess what I tell you doesn't matter. If you're curious I'd encourage you to read about Iran's history and how islam is used in governments in Indo/Malay and other places, and also the spread/appropriation of Arab culture that came with Sunni Islam.