Oct 17, 2020
coltrupwhere do you even start with takes like these lol
Also do you think that even if from day 1 Amazon was a co-op in our current capitalist system that it would have made the innovative strides it’s made?
Oct 17, 202024stillsWould Ktt2 exist if it wasn’t for capitalism and the concept of a free market?
communism is when there is no ktt
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replycoltrup
yeah your belief system makes zero sense lol
no one is saying every capitalist should be guillotined on the spot, but it is clear that the end of capitalism is a near necessity at this point.
if they interfere with radical change then obv people will have to retaliate. otherwise let them be.
Okay so how do we implement socialism in the US without the guillotines? Since the inevitable end of capitalism is coming as you put it. Would you mind walking me through it?
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
And maybe the solution isn’t asking the rich for anything? You can take power away from people without killing them. We can all stop shopping at Amazon right now but we’d rather get mad at Bezos and keep the luxury of Prime Delivery while pretending that if all the employees of Amazon owned a share relative to how much profit they make for the company that it would make even remotely the amount of innovative strides it’s made in the last decade.
1. this "its the individual consumers fault" argument is a gross misunderstanding of reality.
it is inevitable that even if you were homeless and as minimalist as possible, you would still contribute to a certain quantity of GHG emissions by virtue of existing in a society predicated on FFs.
it is inevitable that if you try to get a job, you will be placed within a structure that seeks to exploit you to as large a degree as possible.
i could go on and on. the point is that we are limited as individuals by virtue of living under a certain socioeconomic paradigm.
2. most key technological innovations have little to do with free market competition.
certainly, amazon has done some "innovative" things but much of it can be chalked up to incredibly intelligent engineers and a***ysts, as well as the labourers that execute their plans.
bezos likely had some role in these things but nowhere close to a role that makes him deserving of 10,000,000x greater returns.
it is not the case that a democratized workplace would suddenly be incapable of innovating. you are also imagining such a workplace operating in a capitalist system. obviously worker coops and the like are near untenable because this system demands a ruthless drive towards profit and cost cutting that they cant keep up with.
and despite that there are examples of successful coops.
- Oct 17, 2020·2 repliesKOLLAPS
Okay so how do we implement socialism in the US without the guillotines? Since the inevitable end of capitalism is coming as you put it. Would you mind walking me through it?
you would probably need some guillotines because a handful of capitalists will refuse to acquiesce.
thats unfortunate and unlike many people on this site i think any kind of loss of life is tragic.
but it is what it is. our families and our communities come before the lives of a handful of strangers who refuse to get with the program
- Oct 17, 2020coltrup
you would probably need some guillotines because a handful of capitalists will refuse to acquiesce.
thats unfortunate and unlike many people on this site i think any kind of loss of life is tragic.
but it is what it is. our families and our communities come before the lives of a handful of strangers who refuse to get with the program
Ayy the old “it is what it is” about people dying
I’m sure it didn’t offend you when the president said that a few weeks ago
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replycoltrup
you would probably need some guillotines because a handful of capitalists will refuse to acquiesce.
thats unfortunate and unlike many people on this site i think any kind of loss of life is tragic.
but it is what it is. our families and our communities come before the lives of a handful of strangers who refuse to get with the program
Oh “Our lives and our families” guess what handful of capitalists that have way more access to any military grade weapon will also think?
- Oct 17, 2020
None of this s*** gonna matter when nature goes lol f*** humans
- Oct 17, 2020
tbh a nazbol or fascist candiate is more likely then socialist to became president
i have stated that if the GOP started running populist candidates like trump but are smarter they would win every single time over DNC
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
Oh “Our lives and our families” guess what handful of capitalists that have way more access to any military grade weapon will also think?
at the point where the US responds to yellow vest esque protests with military grade weaponry, you might as well resign yourself to an authoritarian hellscape lol
Oct 17, 2020·2 repliesFeel like music and movies that would be made in potential socialist utopia would probably end up being trash.
- Oct 17, 2020interstellarflyin2
Feel like music and movies that would be made in potential socialist utopia would probably end up being trash.
meanwhile:
- Oct 17, 2020interstellarflyin2
Feel like music and movies that would be made in potential socialist utopia would probably end up being trash.
thats not true through but thats ok
eastern bloc after 60s was quite aware of western music and created music which was very received everywhere
- Oct 17, 2020·3 repliescoltrup
1. this "its the individual consumers fault" argument is a gross misunderstanding of reality.
it is inevitable that even if you were homeless and as minimalist as possible, you would still contribute to a certain quantity of GHG emissions by virtue of existing in a society predicated on FFs.
it is inevitable that if you try to get a job, you will be placed within a structure that seeks to exploit you to as large a degree as possible.
i could go on and on. the point is that we are limited as individuals by virtue of living under a certain socioeconomic paradigm.
2. most key technological innovations have little to do with free market competition.
certainly, amazon has done some "innovative" things but much of it can be chalked up to incredibly intelligent engineers and a***ysts, as well as the labourers that execute their plans.
bezos likely had some role in these things but nowhere close to a role that makes him deserving of 10,000,000x greater returns.
it is not the case that a democratized workplace would suddenly be incapable of innovating. you are also imagining such a workplace operating in a capitalist system. obviously worker coops and the like are near untenable because this system demands a ruthless drive towards profit and cost cutting that they cant keep up with.
and despite that there are examples of successful coops.
I agree with so much of what you’re saying damn near all of it.
And this is what saddens me I see so many people with the same concerns as me.
I am not of the belief that it is the consumer’s fault and I fully understand the concept of forced consent. Obviously society forces you to get whatever job you can get you can’t just pass up a job offer for less than a living wage because “you’re being exploited” society makes you suck it up and play along. And that sucks.
I also agree that Jeff Bezos doesn’t deserve 200 billion dollars. THERE IS A VERY EASY SOLUTION TO THIS.
STOP SHOPPING AT AMAZON. COLLECTIVELY AS A SOCIETY. Then literally his entire net worth drops to zero. Then we’ll find out how much money he ACTUALLY has in the bank and in assets because of course no billionaire will let people think they’re broke. And then we can truly asses how much money he’s unethically taking from his employees. Jeff Bezos’ net worth is the opposite of a representation of how much money he’s getting from Amazon. His share in Amazon and it’s price has virtually nothing to do with the wage of his employees. Like literally nothing they aren’t related. Amazon could bring in just as much money a year without being a public company and it still wouldn’t affect it. Jeff Bezos is just making an unethical decision to pay his employees like s***. He could pay everybody a living wage and still have that net worth if not probably more.
We do not have to kill Jeff Bezos and his board members in order to reach the outcome we want.
This is where you’ll laugh at me and call me a foolish capitalist. But I think we have to outcompete Bezos. I think we have to come together as a society and work towards helping each other and that includes tearing down companies that exploit their workers to an unethical degree because at the end of the day labor is an asset. Exploitation is inherent to labor. But we don’t have to exploit people to a degree where they can’t afford rent. If we can give Amazon and Apple all our money why can’t we give it to a company that pays their employees well?
Also dawg you can’t tell me society collectively cutting off Amazon is an idea too far fetched if you’re advocating for society to collectively overturn the means of production to the working class.
- Oct 17, 2020·2 repliesKOLLAPS
I agree with so much of what you’re saying damn near all of it.
And this is what saddens me I see so many people with the same concerns as me.
I am not of the belief that it is the consumer’s fault and I fully understand the concept of forced consent. Obviously society forces you to get whatever job you can get you can’t just pass up a job offer for less than a living wage because “you’re being exploited” society makes you suck it up and play along. And that sucks.
I also agree that Jeff Bezos doesn’t deserve 200 billion dollars. THERE IS A VERY EASY SOLUTION TO THIS.
STOP SHOPPING AT AMAZON. COLLECTIVELY AS A SOCIETY. Then literally his entire net worth drops to zero. Then we’ll find out how much money he ACTUALLY has in the bank and in assets because of course no billionaire will let people think they’re broke. And then we can truly asses how much money he’s unethically taking from his employees. Jeff Bezos’ net worth is the opposite of a representation of how much money he’s getting from Amazon. His share in Amazon and it’s price has virtually nothing to do with the wage of his employees. Like literally nothing they aren’t related. Amazon could bring in just as much money a year without being a public company and it still wouldn’t affect it. Jeff Bezos is just making an unethical decision to pay his employees like s***. He could pay everybody a living wage and still have that net worth if not probably more.
We do not have to kill Jeff Bezos and his board members in order to reach the outcome we want.
This is where you’ll laugh at me and call me a foolish capitalist. But I think we have to outcompete Bezos. I think we have to come together as a society and work towards helping each other and that includes tearing down companies that exploit their workers to an unethical degree because at the end of the day labor is an asset. Exploitation is inherent to labor. But we don’t have to exploit people to a degree where they can’t afford rent. If we can give Amazon and Apple all our money why can’t we give it to a company that pays their employees well?
Also dawg you can’t tell me society collectively cutting off Amazon is an idea too far fetched if you’re advocating for society to collectively overturn the means of production to the working class.
right, but if you've reached a position where you can organize an entire society to cut off a trillion dollar corporations profit stream why even settle ... at that point you might as well set up some kind of general work/debt strike, mass protests, etc. and go the full mile.
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
I agree with so much of what you’re saying damn near all of it.
And this is what saddens me I see so many people with the same concerns as me.
I am not of the belief that it is the consumer’s fault and I fully understand the concept of forced consent. Obviously society forces you to get whatever job you can get you can’t just pass up a job offer for less than a living wage because “you’re being exploited” society makes you suck it up and play along. And that sucks.
I also agree that Jeff Bezos doesn’t deserve 200 billion dollars. THERE IS A VERY EASY SOLUTION TO THIS.
STOP SHOPPING AT AMAZON. COLLECTIVELY AS A SOCIETY. Then literally his entire net worth drops to zero. Then we’ll find out how much money he ACTUALLY has in the bank and in assets because of course no billionaire will let people think they’re broke. And then we can truly asses how much money he’s unethically taking from his employees. Jeff Bezos’ net worth is the opposite of a representation of how much money he’s getting from Amazon. His share in Amazon and it’s price has virtually nothing to do with the wage of his employees. Like literally nothing they aren’t related. Amazon could bring in just as much money a year without being a public company and it still wouldn’t affect it. Jeff Bezos is just making an unethical decision to pay his employees like s***. He could pay everybody a living wage and still have that net worth if not probably more.
We do not have to kill Jeff Bezos and his board members in order to reach the outcome we want.
This is where you’ll laugh at me and call me a foolish capitalist. But I think we have to outcompete Bezos. I think we have to come together as a society and work towards helping each other and that includes tearing down companies that exploit their workers to an unethical degree because at the end of the day labor is an asset. Exploitation is inherent to labor. But we don’t have to exploit people to a degree where they can’t afford rent. If we can give Amazon and Apple all our money why can’t we give it to a company that pays their employees well?
Also dawg you can’t tell me society collectively cutting off Amazon is an idea too far fetched if you’re advocating for society to collectively overturn the means of production to the working class.
especially because the piece you are missing is that one instantiation of capitalism going under doesnt fix the root cause.
it just means job losses and more workers going hungry/being homeless
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replycoltrup
at the point where the US responds to yellow vest esque protests with military grade weaponry, you might as well resign yourself to an authoritarian hellscape lol
Nope we’re still very far off from an authoritarian hellscape.
Unless you consider the majority of the developed world an authoritarian hellscape since military grade policing used on protesters and rioters is absolutely not exclusive to the US.
This is a very dishonest argument.
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replycoltrup
right, but if you've reached a position where you can organize an entire society to cut off a trillion dollar corporations profit stream why even settle ... at that point you might as well set up some kind of general work/debt strike, mass protests, etc. and go the full mile.
A mass protest is def necessary but my overall point is that we don’t have to overturn the means of production (through inevitable violence) in order to ensure a decent life for most people
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
Nope we’re still very far off from an authoritarian hellscape.
Unless you consider the majority of the developed world an authoritarian hellscape since military grade policing used on protesters and rioters is absolutely not exclusive to the US.
This is a very dishonest argument.
poor wording on my part. when i said military grade i didnt mean militarized police (which we, of course, already have).
- Oct 17, 2020coltrup
right, but if you've reached a position where you can organize an entire society to cut off a trillion dollar corporations profit stream why even settle ... at that point you might as well set up some kind of general work/debt strike, mass protests, etc. and go the full mile.
Ok wait I read what you wrote wrong
In my personal opinion, and this is where I tend to differ with people who actually consider themselves socialists or left leaning, I do not think the bloodshed is either worth it or justifiable
Even if it’s only a few hundreds of thousands to a few millions to better the lives of billions
- Oct 17, 2020coltrup
poor wording on my part. when i said military grade i didnt mean militarized police (which we, of course, already have).
Oh you mean militias?
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
A mass protest is def necessary but my overall point is that we don’t have to overturn the means of production (through inevitable violence) in order to ensure a decent life for most people
i disagree because capitalism is the root cause of environmental and societal degradation and will inevitably undercut whatever meager reforms that manage to slip by it
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replycoltrup
especially because the piece you are missing is that one instantiation of capitalism going under doesnt fix the root cause.
it just means job losses and more workers going hungry/being homeless
Oh of course an alternative to Amazon would need to be propped up
I mean that could be the company’s entire marketing campaign lmao lord knows I would support it
Oct 17, 2020Money is good
- Oct 17, 2020·1 replyKOLLAPS
Oh of course an alternative to Amazon would need to be propped up
I mean that could be the company’s entire marketing campaign lmao lord knows I would support it
right and the alternative would ultimately be no better because the increasing need to exploit workers and the environment is built into the system
there is no ethical mega corporation