I just want to take a moment to say that a lot of you saw this as unpreventable and largely agree with how its being addressed on an international scale so when you get the results, make sure to stand by them. They will be very grim. You can only retreat into "this is the best possible future" so many times.

you don't have to embrace it

but you also don't have to spread propaganda and be xenophobic how it's a Nazi slogan and generalize a whole nation because they feel patriotic in a time of war

u are using the same logic Russia is using by saying it has to "denazify" Ukraine and no one agrees with them, and no one agrees with them because it's not true

They were able to murder tens of thousands of Poles and Jews without any political power lol? Think you need to re-assess your conception of political power and how it functions

I'm saying the actual history of the slogan and you consider that bad. I'm saying the actual ideological implications of the slogan and you consider that bad. The slogan isn't propaganda but me saying it it's bad is propaganda. You're being very uncharitable again.

You can say it all you want. I don't think it should be in the title of the thread. I consider people who use it to be partisan war spectators which I find pretty gross in this context but having that context seems to be difficult. I don't search out these videos of people dying or find memes about this war funny. I'm not rooting for any soldiers.

I think the US is culpable and probably strategically very happy with how it's going. That's gross to me as a US citizen. I think Ukrainian leadership seriously failed their citizens by getting it to this point and sympathize with the civilians and hope as many escape with their lives as possible. I think Putin invading is a failure on all fronts from morality to legality to strategy to responsibility to his countrymen and hope he is brought to justice by them.

I'm getting called a propagandist for linking to a conservative libertarian pacifism publication. I'm getting called a propagandist for not being a Ukranian nationalist. I'm getting called a propagandist for critiquing the US and NATO and Ukraine as well as Russia. I have no reason not to. These are regimes that operate on ideologies obviously divorced from the well-being of the average man and woman in their countries. To them is my only allegiance. It's tragic how many of them have been forced to be more than that, pawns who will slaughter each other in the name of the men and ideologies that drove them to this point.

?

I'm not confusing ww2 ukrainian fascists with modern day ones. You're the one who seems to be confused all the time. The Ukrainian fascists had no power over the decisions Germany decided to take under the occupied territory. The germans were executing or jailing high ranking nationalists members for not aligning with their goals. Bandera shortly after the pogroms started was sent to Germany and placed under house arrest for deciding to not submit to the demands of the German state.

So L + Ratio dude

And I think you need to look at how much control the Germans had over those decisions

Ah yes, Stepan Bandera and OUN - known for being big supporters of Polish and Jewish people, but sadly were forced to murder them by the thousand. Bandera was but another one of Hitlers victims. I’m sure he would have provided shelter for them all if he could have!

The lengths you liberals have gone to to sanitize the horrific legacy of fascism as a result of all this is f***ing insane lol

I mean I know you’re just serving your inevitable historical function, but it still never ceases to amaze

how it is not propaganda when you use the same logic and reasoning Russia is using, they don't care about Nazis and have arguably more of them amongst their military ranks, the reason they do this is because they know we all view Nazism in a bad light so they try to stick that picture to a symbol of Ukrainian national identity to suppress it for obvious reasons

Then you come into the thread and say how a slogan of Ukrainian sovereignty is bad is playing right into their hand, just because you don't realize it's propaganda doesn't mean it isn't

you could have just said you don't support "Slava Ukraini" and no one would give a damn, also I would have nothing against removing it from the thread title but that's OP personal choice, but no you had to do all these theatrics to say how it's bad and how OP should take it out the thread title because why? you don't like Ukrainian people? please.

circling back to this Nazi thing is getting tiresome and we discussed it too many times already

Not everything Putin says is a lie just because it was used as a pretext for an invasion. You can weaponize truth for terrible causes. That doesn't make it less true. I've been the one specific and nuanced about the extent of the reactionary ideology inside Ukraine and the centers it inhabits.

I don't support the invasion. I don't support censoring history either. Especially not when this censoring and distortion and laundering is enabling terrible people to do terrible things. It was, it is, it will be present in Ukraine and I want the war that legitimizes and feeds it to end as soon as possible.

It will linger and be stronger than ever, more armed than ever. To what ends? These countries will still border each other. You cannot solve that with nationalism. On either side, but the entire west isn't putting Russian flags in their avatar, they aren't saying Z, and the war which they failed to prevent and are failing to end is only growing the same style of militant nationalism across that border anyway.

I refuse to be sorted cleanly into these very unproductive and superficial "teams" you people have joined. Again, to what end? So Russia can be destabilized? So it can be invaded and their population victimized instead? I mean the last time the west got what they wanted in terms of Russian reorientation and leadership it resulted in ruinous consequences including Vladimir Putin. This is the snake eating its own tail. Time is a flat circle.

If we're all just watching TV and reading articles and saying what we want, I'm not going to settle for that. Sorry. How a positive deviation from that occurs more broadly I don't know, but the pitfalls seem pretty obvious and the actions/inaction by my country in creating them also seems obvious and worth pointing out.

Also known for getting jailed and or executed shortly after the pogroms started by Erich. Interesting to me how fellow Jew and Polish haters jailed and executed other jew and polish haters even though they at least showed willingness to cooperate with each other.

You people are trying to overplay the importance the non german fascists played in the holocaust. These groups played no important role in the desires of the German government. They were willing help scouted by the Nazi regime. These killings would play out the same way with or without the OUN helping them. If you want to know the impact of the Ukrainian nationalists to the holocaust then by all means go read Bloodlands by Snyder. Because talking out of your ass like the other guy did will do you no good.

Yeah 'slava ukraini' is a nazi slogan in the same way black and brown are nazi colours

Sure they wore them but it's fine to wear them yourself, they didn't invent them and you shouldn't have to give up good stuff cause of some a******s that dont represent you

The horrific legacy of some Ukrainian teenagers saying slava ukraini when they're stuck hiding in the metro during bombing raids

Truly a crime against humanity

Are you really this f***ing stupid and incapable of reading or utilizing context clues

Yeah I’m not reading a book that won the f***ing Hannah Arendt prize and relies on liberal horseshoe theory to form its thesis

Ah, so talking out of your ass it is.

yall too woke for me

Slava ukraini is harmless

Being antisemitic, otherwise racist, or a nazi isn't

It's jist two words. Saying 2 words doesn't empower anyone. The words are just pro ukraine

Youre making a mountain out of a molehill because you are pro russia

'Fuck Ukrainian nazi battalions let's ignore the fascist state next to them'

tbh i think there's an argument for how westerners placing themselves as moral observers of a situation can lead to rhetorical manipulation where they aren't fully aware of the implications of what they're supporting - not saying someone can't condemn egregious actions from abroad, but the context of non-ukranians saying mottos or doing salutes as if they're the actual ones at war isn't a great precedent when it comes down to having to mediate a situation w/o it faltering into a wider catastrophe. Don't confuse this with saying that Russia is justified in an invasion to begin with or that Ukranians are bad for fighting back, it's more just that i can see the argument for how westerners placing themselves rhetorically into that conflict isn't just solidarity, it's actually likening yourself to an offensive party which in turns implies a level of interventionalism

Cancel culture I can get behind

I agree, and I think the meaning of the slogan assists your point

With that said, I still think the slogan is harmless to say most of the time

I first became aware of it through a demo at my uni led by Ukrainian studehts

Why would I, a communist who thinks Russia has been more or less capitalist and imperialist since the late 1950s, be pro Russia - a virulently capitalist and reactionary state ?