SEGA GOON

4y

The economy may be bad but that economy also sent the rest of the Western world into a spiral

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

if russia succeeds, and succeeds quickly it's georgia next, then lithuania, before you know it russia has an economic and political hold on poland

salami slicing needs to aborted on inception else your alliances are demonstrably weaker and enemy incrementally gains

all the people of europe have an interest in rust bucket dictatorships being kept the f*** away

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

russia cant even look after russians properly, why on earth would anyone want to let them spread the regime's demonstrable inability to govern elsewhere

SEGA GOON

4y

Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Poland are not particularly well functioning liberal democracies. The divide isn't over democracy vs authoritarianism, it's simply about geopolitical sides

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

if russia succeeds, and succeeds quickly it's georgia next, then lithuania, before you know it russia has an economic and political hold on poland

salami slicing needs to aborted on inception else your alliances are demonstrably weaker and enemy incrementally gains

all the people of europe have an interest in rust bucket dictatorships being kept the f*** away

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

with the exception of hungary, theyre all still far better than russia

americana

4y

Yeah except those Lithuania and Poland are in NATO and the EU. They’re firmly in the US sphere

And why do you care? You’re probably getting buttfucked by a bunch of western billionaires with some faux liberalist bullshit. What difference would Russian influence make if not for the thin veneer of idealism worn away.

krishna bound

4y

The issue is not that they're asking for help, it's that they keep escalating the ask to ridiculous heights under which it's clear they won't be satisfied until they drag their allies into a direct conflict with their opposition; the ask has gone higher and higher and required more and more direct engagement on a monthly basis and this shows no sign of slowing done. The amount the US & EU have done for Ukraine vs every other regional conflict including an allied party is already a key indicator of there being ulterior motives on the side of Ukraine's allies - of course, people in Ukraine in the government aren't stupid, they are aware these proxy motives exist and are trying to take advantage of them.
This isn't an ontological debate about whether or not Zelensky can morally justify his actions given his circumstance; it's a question of whether the geopolitics are justifiable given the wider situation these actions find themselves in. I said it before; if it's a war of self-determination, then let it be so - I don't care and all the better for Ukranian People if they win the war. But what is the goal of Zelensky now? To fight a forever war against Russia off of the taxpayer money of people abroad? To actually invade Russia back? His goal posts have shifted from preservation of Ukraine and expelling Russia into winning a aggressive war against Russia.
The escalation is getting to the point (past it) Zelensky is essentially asking his allies to wage nuclear war on behalf of their own nationalist interests whereas he could far more easily bring the war to an end by ceding Donbas and preserving the current sphere of the country. I'm not saying this is a "good" outcome - however, sorry, postponing an inevitable outcome in lieu of creating a foreign-funded forever war is not "in the interest of the Ukranian People". Everyone here knows I am not anti-nationalism, but I am against the faux-nationalism presented by twisting a nationalist coat of paint to cover global (see: american) ulterior interests.

Y0rn

4y

Ceding the Donbas might be the outcome in the near future, but remember that wasn't the main objective from Russia. That was regime change at first. A more pro-Russian president had to be installed. So ceding the Donbas is only possible if the rest of Ukraine can be part of NATO. Then they have an assurance Russia won't try it again, unless they're dumb enough to start World War III.

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

because i like my ability to vote, travel unimpeded across other democracies, and benefit from strong welfare systems and low levels of corruption which you just dont find in russia.
I can go on a rant about queen elizabeth or the italian president, as long as im not inciting violence im going to be left alone and ignored. ive no interest in being polonium poisoned

Russian influence demonstrably means being materially, socially and culturally worse off, and clearly eastern europe agrees
i would like that authoritarian cancer kept the f*** away from me

also to address what you say about nato, even among nato members, failute to challenge russian incursions will lead to diminished confidence and harmony within the alliance. if there isnt a will to defend and really show you mean it, if russia moves to lithuania and bridges to kaliningrad, and the pushback is also weak, it means nato is functionally bunk and russia can have what it wants.

krishna bound

4y

The issue is not that they're asking for help, it's that they keep escalating the ask to ridiculous heights under which it's clear they won't be satisfied until they drag their allies into a direct conflict with their opposition; the ask has gone higher and higher and required more and more direct engagement on a monthly basis and this shows no sign of slowing done. The amount the US & EU have done for Ukraine vs every other regional conflict including an allied party is already a key indicator of there being ulterior motives on the side of Ukraine's allies - of course, people in Ukraine in the government aren't stupid, they are aware these proxy motives exist and are trying to take advantage of them.
This isn't an ontological debate about whether or not Zelensky can morally justify his actions given his circumstance; it's a question of whether the geopolitics are justifiable given the wider situation these actions find themselves in. I said it before; if it's a war of self-determination, then let it be so - I don't care and all the better for Ukranian People if they win the war. But what is the goal of Zelensky now? To fight a forever war against Russia off of the taxpayer money of people abroad? To actually invade Russia back? His goal posts have shifted from preservation of Ukraine and expelling Russia into winning a aggressive war against Russia.
The escalation is getting to the point (past it) Zelensky is essentially asking his allies to wage nuclear war on behalf of their own nationalist interests whereas he could far more easily bring the war to an end by ceding Donbas and preserving the current sphere of the country. I'm not saying this is a "good" outcome - however, sorry, postponing an inevitable outcome in lieu of creating a foreign-funded forever war is not "in the interest of the Ukranian People". Everyone here knows I am not anti-nationalism, but I am against the faux-nationalism presented by twisting a nationalist coat of paint to cover global (see: american) ulterior interests.

americana

4y

You can vote in russia

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

yeah and it'll do f*** all cause it's rigged and all the opposition parties are dummies

even the communists

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

yeah people in this thread constantly forget just how ambitious russia was here, they wanted donbass, and the entire rest of ukraine to be under a russian puppet

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

because i like my ability to vote, travel unimpeded across other democracies, and benefit from strong welfare systems and low levels of corruption which you just dont find in russia.
I can go on a rant about queen elizabeth or the italian president, as long as im not inciting violence im going to be left alone and ignored. ive no interest in being polonium poisoned

Russian influence demonstrably means being materially, socially and culturally worse off, and clearly eastern europe agrees
i would like that authoritarian cancer kept the f*** away from me

also to address what you say about nato, even among nato members, failute to challenge russian incursions will lead to diminished confidence and harmony within the alliance. if there isnt a will to defend and really show you mean it, if russia moves to lithuania and bridges to kaliningrad, and the pushback is also weak, it means nato is functionally bunk and russia can have what it wants.

Scratchin Mamba

4y

How do you look at how Russia is doing in Ukraine and then fear them invading NATO countries and taking over Europe

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

all actors seek power as the means to survival, with power being ultimate power equalling ultimate secueity

theyll maximise their power in europe where feasible. where confidence in nato drops it's not that unrealistic to see a play for lithuania at some point, to connect russia to kaliningrad

Scratchin Mamba

4y

You seriously believe Russia would invade a NATO country?

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

the precondition for russia invading a nato country is the rational assumption that nato will not flock to defend the nato member, invalidating and effectively destroying the alliance

it wouldnt be soon, but failure to challenge ukraine, alongside a real terms increase in russian regional and military power- means that nato states may become reluctant to challenge russia

so over time, probably a decade or so, i could see russia making a break for lithuania

Scratchin Mamba

4y

If according to you NATO is useless as a defence then why even defend its existence since by your own admission it only serves as a means of western imperialist aggression

SEGA GOON

4y

We don't really know all their strategic goals. They were vague about it. I do believe that after a few weeks, Russians thought they could take over Kherson Odessa etc easily, but I'm not sure if this was their aim all along.

TragedyBerlusconi

4y

it's not useless at defence and that's not what i said

in order to keep it effective, any attempts to alter the european regional order by russia must be challenged

americana

4y

You can vote in russia