tgdaddy

3y

that's wrong too, although im pretty sure ive seen a huge amount said about myanmar, the junta and the rohingya there by my peers

Yuzzy

3y

No, it is forcing Ukraine to attempt to become one of those countries

There is no guarantee of success, in fact I'd say theyre unlikely to succeed

But that does not matter to the loaners

Yuzzy

3y

Who are your peers

My point is there isn't the same intervention particularly from the West there

And I don't think its racism, its about money

Offline

3y

Note that Lukashenko successfully stymied a color revolution unlike whatever incompetent was in charge in Ukraine at the time

Hurdle33 dog

3y

My whole point is that it's bad that the USA gains full control over Ukraine at the cost of 100000s of human lives

tgdaddy

3y

there is an element of saviourism yes. i own up. however it's also about shared interests. i have an interest in russia being stopped.

and we've taken plenty of ukrainians

people can make money off our choices in ukraine but that doesnt make the choices bad, it just means they benefit some people. no impact on the moral calculus of disincentivising land grabs

i reiterate. failure to stop them in ukraine means eventually it’s going to be the baltics and the carpathians in trouble

as for the conscripts, i feel for them. it’s a russian government probpem not a russian people problem. not wagner though, they are rapists who i must reluctantly recognise as humans just like us

tgdaddy

3y

ukraine already trying to privatise before the war, they own loads of former soviet assets it makes no sense for the state to own, it's not that big of a deal

the conditions will probably be more to do with curtailing corruption

ukraine wants to be another eu country, quite clearly. i dont see why selling soviet cookie factories is a big f***ing deal

Offline

3y

Note that Lukashenko successfully stymied a color revolution unlike whatever incompetent was in charge in Ukraine at the time

Yuzzy

3y

Not entirely fabricated, he is terrible to his people (I know Belarusan immigrants)

Yuzzy

3y

Not entirely fabricated, he is terrible to his people (I know Belarusan immigrants)

Offline

3y

Ok sure but then the US took control via Euromaidan which was relatively peaceful, and most of the bloodshed is coming from the Russian attempt to regain control. You may also question if it is worth killing off or exiling the already depleted Russian youth for the sake of the Donbas and Crimea

Offline

3y

I don’t use “color revolution” to mean “nefarious Anglo-American plot to weaken Holy Russia”, they are helped along or receive support to some degree or another if they are congruent with American security interests, but this isn’t necessarily the case, for example I don’t think the US played a large, if any, role in the (successful) Armenian protests in 2018

Yuzzy

3y

people can make money off our choices in ukraine but that doesnt make the choices bad, it just means they benefit some people. no impact on the moral calculus of disincentivising land grabs

There's no benefit without disbenefit; the money being made comes from somewhere, in this case dead humans.

"Land grabs" are one of the most basic elements of a multi state world

Look up all the islands the US and China have claimed without regard for the people there

This is of course not equivalent to what Russia is doing but really think about what you're saying and whether it makes sense

i reiterate. failure to stop them in ukraine means eventually it’s going to be the baltics and the carpathians in trouble

This is pure conjecture, I understand you may be worried as a Pole but something like that is such a large scale event, it can't happen without a true dictator like Hitler or Stalin (not necessarily 'like' them but someone with their unilateral control). Putin does not have that level, he would likely be assassinated before Russian boots enter a NATO country.

Its the Russian governments decision but its Russian people dying so I would still say its their problem

Offline

3y

I don’t use “color revolution” to mean “nefarious Anglo-American plot to weaken Holy Russia”, they are helped along or receive support to some degree or another if they are congruent with American security interests, but this isn’t necessarily the case, for example I don’t think the US played a large, if any, role in the (successful) Armenian protests in 2018

tgdaddy

3y

ukraine already trying to privatise before the war, they own loads of former soviet assets it makes no sense for the state to own, it's not that big of a deal

the conditions will probably be more to do with curtailing corruption

ukraine wants to be another eu country, quite clearly. i dont see why selling soviet cookie factories is a big f***ing deal

Sir Real

3y

Yes they were, and it was wildly unpopular. The war provided the political cover they needed to carry it out

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2022/08/13/ukraine-the-invasion-of-capital/

As early as 2013, for instance, the World Bank provided an $89 million loan for the development of a deed and land title program needed for the commercialization of state-owned and cooperative land. In the words of a 2019 World Bank paper the aim was an “accelerating of private investment in agriculture.” That agreement, denounced at the time by Russia as a backdoor to facilitating the entry of Western multinationals, includes the promotion of “modern agricultural production … including the use of biotechnologies,” an apparent opening towards GMO crops on Ukrainian fields.

The irony is that the 2018 URC plans were opposed by most Ukrainians. A public opinion poll found that just 12.4% supported privatization of state-owned enterprises (SOE), whereas 49.9% opposed it. (An additional 12% were indifferent, whereas 25.7% had no answer.)

Hurdle33 dog

3y

There was no invasion before the coup. The coup isn't peaceful if it triggers an invasion. Which isn't bad in itself. People usually have to kill to progress a cause. But what cause is being progressed? "ukraine independence***"? Come on

Offline

3y

Well my understanding is that the Russian state was kind of forced into military intervention in the Donbas in 2014, not by the West but by nationalist adventurers, and would not have committed at all otherwise and only really committed in 2022.

Ukraine victory: Ukraine gradually becomes less poor and less corrupt, separate Ukrainian identity emphasized, becomes Americanized culturally

Russian victory: Ukraine remains as poor and corrupt as it is today, Ukrainian ties with Russia emphasized, still becomes Americanized culturally but twice a year the government releases a communiqué about how gender ideology is bad

Apparently some people think either of these are worth fighting for

Choking

3y

Ukraine victory: Ukraine gradually becomes less poor and less corrupt

doubt tbh

Choking

3y

immigrants aren’t always representatives of the people of the country left and i’m saying this as an immigrant

Sir Real

3y

Yes they were, and it was wildly unpopular. The war provided the political cover they needed to carry it out

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2022/08/13/ukraine-the-invasion-of-capital/

As early as 2013, for instance, the World Bank provided an $89 million loan for the development of a deed and land title program needed for the commercialization of state-owned and cooperative land. In the words of a 2019 World Bank paper the aim was an “accelerating of private investment in agriculture.” That agreement, denounced at the time by Russia as a backdoor to facilitating the entry of Western multinationals, includes the promotion of “modern agricultural production … including the use of biotechnologies,” an apparent opening towards GMO crops on Ukrainian fields.

The irony is that the 2018 URC plans were opposed by most Ukrainians. A public opinion poll found that just 12.4% supported privatization of state-owned enterprises (SOE), whereas 49.9% opposed it. (An additional 12% were indifferent, whereas 25.7% had no answer.)

Offline

3y

I’m not very Optimistic, just that if either side somehow won total victory tomorrow, Ukrainian victory-Ukraine would be relatively better off economically compared to Russian victory-Ukraine 30 years from now

Yuzzy

3y

people can make money off our choices in ukraine but that doesnt make the choices bad, it just means they benefit some people. no impact on the moral calculus of disincentivising land grabs

There's no benefit without disbenefit; the money being made comes from somewhere, in this case dead humans.

"Land grabs" are one of the most basic elements of a multi state world

Look up all the islands the US and China have claimed without regard for the people there

This is of course not equivalent to what Russia is doing but really think about what you're saying and whether it makes sense

i reiterate. failure to stop them in ukraine means eventually it’s going to be the baltics and the carpathians in trouble

This is pure conjecture, I understand you may be worried as a Pole but something like that is such a large scale event, it can't happen without a true dictator like Hitler or Stalin (not necessarily 'like' them but someone with their unilateral control). Putin does not have that level, he would likely be assassinated before Russian boots enter a NATO country.

Its the Russian governments decision but its Russian people dying so I would still say its their problem