krishna bound

4y

tbh the fact i havent seen any people holding up signs written in english is the only reason i don't think this is a psyop anytime someone is holding up english signs during a protest in a foreign country (ESPECIALLY ASIA) you know that s*** is astroturfed to hell and back

deadacc

4y

yea its definitely a point against the theory. like imagine the cia putting together a not absolutely dogshit color rev movement in 2022

Womanpuncher69

4y

America is on an unconscious death drive like Nazi Germany

no i will not explain further

deadacc

4y

thank you for writing out this lengthy response.

You misunderstand the tweet, the ppl in the video are not responding to someone calling Marx and Engels foreign influences, they are responding to people slandering the protesters as foreign puppets by sarcastically asking if Marx and Engels are those nefarious foreigners. The CPC and their supporters are not leftist, so it doesn't matter what their take is on this point.

the transcribed video ive seen explains the context as:
1) There is a protest
2) A person in the crowd shouts through a hand speaker that they've just received information to be on alert that there are "foreign anti-china forces among us, here and now!" (to the area; insinuating usually HKers or Taiwanese)
3) Other people respond say "We are Chinese!" then the people leading the protest start exclaiming "may i ask if the foreign forces you say refer to Marx and Engles?" "Are they Stalin? Are they Lenin?" "All those are external!"
this is clearly an attempt to frame the so-called "nationalists" as the real chinese and communism as a foreign influence controlling the masses. "Where comes foreign forces?" "From the moon!"
im not misunderstanding the tweet. these are anticommunist protestors asking for "freedom". i'm not a trot so i'm not gonna take the cpc is not real leftist line, but there's no point arguing it.

That comment is wrong. Idk if the family whos been made famous by their death in the fire had their apartment door locked but it's not a matter of debate that COVID restrictions locked doors throughout the apartment, preventing people from escaping and firefighters from saving people while the building burned. He's clearly just a CPC shill, seeing as he's invoking the unfounded "protesters are just paid crisis actors" narrative. Most protesters simply want the existing government to change its policies, not all of them want outright revolution. But if they did, why would I be opposed to it? If Chinese ppl want to get rid of their government they would have plenty of valid reasons to do so. I'm not gonna sit here and try to portray defending Xi "Chinese workers are getting too lazy" Jinping and Li "China needs to liberalize its financial market" Keqiang as a socialist position.

"Most protesters simply want the existing government to change its policies, not all of them want outright revolution" I agree and I believe about half or more of the protestors are there for this purpose.
but come on lein. "why would i be opposed to outright revolution against the chinese government?" wtf type of anti-materialist take is this. just on a basic humanist basis why would u be in support of a reactionary OUTRIGHT revolution against the entire chinese government, knowing full well the havoc anything remotely close to that would wreak. you just agreed and said that the majority of protestors want to reform the regulations to work FOR people. the assumption that "Chinese ppl" would even remotely support at large anything resembling an outright revolution is already creating huge assumptions and false binaries.

The current approach to covid has clearly lost its initial popularity and justification as the burdens it's imposed on people have grown while its actual effectiveness has fallen. Cases are going up. The isolation/quarantine facilities are in terrible condition More and more people are stuck in long periods of time where they can't leave their house, can't work, and their needs arent being met by the gov. Others like manufacturing workers and students are told they cannot leave their work site/ university and are shoved into dilapidated dormitories. In the case of Foxconn or Tesla workers its practically forced labor. The protesters don't need "adventurist manipulators" to turn them against the current Covid policy, things like women being refused medical care because theyre in lockdown and a having miscarriage does more than enough. Every social grievance in China is chalked up to foreign saboteurs whether its labor organizing in Hong Kong or feminist activism for brides in rural Yunnan, it's rarely if ever said in good faith.

I agree that the government needs to reform their covid regulations, and they are obviously experimenting at this very moment with new regulations seeking solutions to mediate with the masses as is the role of the state. The "adventurists" I'm referring to are the party members that are imposing covid regulation overreach that is causing more harm to people's lives than good.
Reacting and negating to right nationalists using the foreign agitators line doesn't mean that there aren't circumstances where the line isn't correct. Reading truth from facts is heavily determined by the facts you get, and in this instance my understanding from the facts is that this is being overly publicized and being fueled w the support of certain reactionary factions of various motives.

There is the problem that china doesn't have an effective vaccine, much of its at risk population is unvaccinated, and its skeletal private Healthcare system couldn't possibly handle the rise in covid cases that would follow a lifting of Zero Covid. But if the CPC nationalized and expanded healthcare, bought foreign mrna vaccines and carried out a vaccination campaign, it wouldn't need such strict policies that are now failing anyways! The Chinese government has seemingly endless funds for Real estate developers, they should put this money to socially useful objectives for once.

I agree, and I would assume this is the second group identified by the cpc as the "opportunists". organizations and individuals attempting to wring profit out of the epidemic instead of serving the people, which is clearly having a devastating effect on people's lives.

Womanpuncher69

4y

America is on an unconscious death drive like Nazi Germany

no i will not explain further

krishna bound

4y

basically all of japanese society is based on consumerism rn. like moreso than america by such a massive margin its hard to really convey unless you've been there its actually pretty insane given the juxtaposition to importance of local norms

krishna bound

4y

modern western society in general is deeply founded on a primal death drive

Womanpuncher69

4y

America is on an unconscious death drive like Nazi Germany

no i will not explain further

krishna bound

4y

basically all of japanese society is based on consumerism rn. like moreso than america by such a massive margin its hard to really convey unless you've been there its actually pretty insane given the juxtaposition to importance of local norms

kiddash3r

4y

CONSOOOOOOM

Lein

4y

This is a complete misrepresentation of the video. The protesters sarcastically say the foreign forces must be Foreign Communists because the party still uses ML imagey so they cannot claim Marx/Engels/Stalin represent evil foreigners. This is the same logic behind protesters singing the Internationale, waving the Chinese flag, etc.

You will have to explain how I am supporting "reactionaries" here. Is it not the CPC advancing policies such as the closed loop management system for priviledged corporations? Is it not the CPC's cops brutalized those who protest against such policies? Is it not the CPC letting companies fire sick workers? Is it not the CPC then failing to provide for those workers? Is it reactionary to say "no, I actually don't want to live in Elon Musk's company town, I don't want to argue on the phone for 2 hours for the government to deliver me a single bag of groceries, I don't want to be denied urgent medical area because my area is locked down"??? There will inevitably be reactionaries in a protest movements that includes the most disenfranchised Migrant workers, more comfortable white collar professionals, students from both elite and random schools, small business owners, etc etc. But it is a leap of logic to then claim that this movement is "reactionary" especially given what the main demands are and who is making them.

How do you call me anti materialist then tell me to look at this from a humanist perspective? The fact is most Chinese, most Canadians, most Americans, most Bangladeshis, most people do not support revolution. Im still committed to communist reevolution. Since when have Marxists looked to survey polls? Is it only when the survey poll hits 51% that we can hold Marxist principles? Because that has dire consequences for communists worldwide, especially in the West. I did not say I support a Communist revolution in China now, I said if most Chinese supported it, I would as well. Idk what to tell you if you would disagree with that. Everg revolution brings about societal chaos, the argument is that things are already bad and revolution will make them better.

You present a false dichotomy between inept and corrupt local officials and their progressive counterparts in Zhongnanhai. The current situation is a product of Central policy above all, however worsened or ameliorated things are by local governments. Do you seriously believe Xi is a helpless figurehead his fingers as thousands of local officials run their own fiefdom? Or are they part of the same structure with a Central government at the top, protecting the overall system by blaming every failure on a single corrupt official, a single inept party cell, a single misguided municipal party, etc. Even during the wave privatization of federal state companies, they still managed to blame local officials with minimal if any authority over those processes. If you think everything wrong with China is the fault of random provincial bureaucrat #32489, that's exactly what they want you to think.

deadacc

4y

This is a complete misrepresentation of the video. The protesters sarcastically say the foreign forces must be Foreign Communists because the party still uses ML imagey so they cannot claim Marx/Engels/Stalin represent evil foreigners. This is the same logic behind protesters singing the Internationale, waving the Chinese flag, etc.

*edited this section after reading some more
because these protestors are appealing to the government in order to ask them to reform, which the government is willing to do. the logic behind using the Chinese Flag and the Internationale is because under the Chinese constitution you are entirely within your rights to protest for change as long as it does not "undermine the interests of the state, society or collectives, or infringe upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens" according to article 51 of the Chinese constitution.
the reactionary/nonreactionary elements of the protestors is not something we will be able to convince the other of as spectators so we can pass this point.

You will have to explain how I am supporting "reactionaries" here. Is it not the CPC advancing policies such as the closed loop management system for priviledged corporations? Is it not the CPC's cops brutalized those who protest against such policies? Is it not the CPC letting companies fire sick workers? Is it not the CPC then failing to provide for those workers? Is it reactionary to say "no, I actually don't want to live in Elon Musk's company town, I don't want to argue on the phone for 2 hours for the government to deliver me a single bag of groceries, I don't want to be denied urgent medical area because my area is locked down"??? There will inevitably be reactionaries in a protest movements that includes the most disenfranchised Migrant workers, more comfortable white collar professionals, students from both elite and random schools, small business owners, etc etc. But it is a leap of logic to then claim that this movement is "reactionary" especially given what the main demands are and who is making them.

none of these groups except the bourgeois elements want revolution at all. they are protesting and bringing attention to issues that the cpc needs to address, which they are? you are in a trot superposition of 1. claiming nobody wants revolution 2. saying you dont support a revolution in china now 3. saying that Chinese ppl have every reason to have a revolution and you would support one. its an idealist hypothetical that gives you no political or ideological basis. "i would so totally support a revolution in china, if they wanted one" is a non-statement. material reality is that there are not currently revolutionary conditions in china on the path to socialist construction and the people see no reason atm why the contradictions within the current government are so insoluble as to dictate the necessity of revolution.

china is not socialist. it is a huge country with many backwards deficiencies in the government, that should be addressed. that being said, on the path to socialist construction, ALL progress is progress and just because the cpc is impure and has issues doesn't necessitate advocating for morally superior trot superpositions.

You present a false dichotomy between inept and corrupt local officials and their progressive counterparts in Zhongnanhai. The current situation is a product of Central policy above all, however worsened or ameliorated things are by local governments. Do you seriously believe Xi is a helpless figurehead his fingers as thousands of local officials run their own fiefdom? Or are they part of the same structure with a Central government at the top, protecting the overall system by blaming every failure on a single corrupt official, a single inept party cell, a single misguided municipal party, etc. Even during the wave privatization of federal state companies, they still managed to blame local officials with minimal if any authority over those processes. If you think everything wrong with China is the fault of random provincial bureaucrat #32489, that's exactly what they want you to think.

I can agree that the central government should take blame where it's due. What is due is that it was incapable of pursuing a more successful policy. By saying that there are corrupt regional elements that have expressly IGNORED the central policy is not creating a false dichotomy that completely excuses Xi and any other central authorities. It's a failure to let local authorities cause failures that much is obvious. i am not and never have been pursuing a false dichotomy of purity amongst either the protests or the government and im not sure where you might be getting that assertion from. i don't think everything wrong with china is local corruption, and i dont think ive ever said that. im pretty sure i also said that the Chinese government is failing to reflect the will of its people and is suffering as a result.

Womanpuncher69

4y

they aren’t on the path towards socialist construction though

Womanpuncher69

4y

they aren’t on the path towards socialist construction though

deadacc

4y

This is a complete misrepresentation of the video. The protesters sarcastically say the foreign forces must be Foreign Communists because the party still uses ML imagey so they cannot claim Marx/Engels/Stalin represent evil foreigners. This is the same logic behind protesters singing the Internationale, waving the Chinese flag, etc.

*edited this section after reading some more
because these protestors are appealing to the government in order to ask them to reform, which the government is willing to do. the logic behind using the Chinese Flag and the Internationale is because under the Chinese constitution you are entirely within your rights to protest for change as long as it does not "undermine the interests of the state, society or collectives, or infringe upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens" according to article 51 of the Chinese constitution.
the reactionary/nonreactionary elements of the protestors is not something we will be able to convince the other of as spectators so we can pass this point.

You will have to explain how I am supporting "reactionaries" here. Is it not the CPC advancing policies such as the closed loop management system for priviledged corporations? Is it not the CPC's cops brutalized those who protest against such policies? Is it not the CPC letting companies fire sick workers? Is it not the CPC then failing to provide for those workers? Is it reactionary to say "no, I actually don't want to live in Elon Musk's company town, I don't want to argue on the phone for 2 hours for the government to deliver me a single bag of groceries, I don't want to be denied urgent medical area because my area is locked down"??? There will inevitably be reactionaries in a protest movements that includes the most disenfranchised Migrant workers, more comfortable white collar professionals, students from both elite and random schools, small business owners, etc etc. But it is a leap of logic to then claim that this movement is "reactionary" especially given what the main demands are and who is making them.

none of these groups except the bourgeois elements want revolution at all. they are protesting and bringing attention to issues that the cpc needs to address, which they are? you are in a trot superposition of 1. claiming nobody wants revolution 2. saying you dont support a revolution in china now 3. saying that Chinese ppl have every reason to have a revolution and you would support one. its an idealist hypothetical that gives you no political or ideological basis. "i would so totally support a revolution in china, if they wanted one" is a non-statement. material reality is that there are not currently revolutionary conditions in china on the path to socialist construction and the people see no reason atm why the contradictions within the current government are so insoluble as to dictate the necessity of revolution.

china is not socialist. it is a huge country with many backwards deficiencies in the government, that should be addressed. that being said, on the path to socialist construction, ALL progress is progress and just because the cpc is impure and has issues doesn't necessitate advocating for morally superior trot superpositions.

You present a false dichotomy between inept and corrupt local officials and their progressive counterparts in Zhongnanhai. The current situation is a product of Central policy above all, however worsened or ameliorated things are by local governments. Do you seriously believe Xi is a helpless figurehead his fingers as thousands of local officials run their own fiefdom? Or are they part of the same structure with a Central government at the top, protecting the overall system by blaming every failure on a single corrupt official, a single inept party cell, a single misguided municipal party, etc. Even during the wave privatization of federal state companies, they still managed to blame local officials with minimal if any authority over those processes. If you think everything wrong with China is the fault of random provincial bureaucrat #32489, that's exactly what they want you to think.

I can agree that the central government should take blame where it's due. What is due is that it was incapable of pursuing a more successful policy. By saying that there are corrupt regional elements that have expressly IGNORED the central policy is not creating a false dichotomy that completely excuses Xi and any other central authorities. It's a failure to let local authorities cause failures that much is obvious. i am not and never have been pursuing a false dichotomy of purity amongst either the protests or the government and im not sure where you might be getting that assertion from. i don't think everything wrong with china is local corruption, and i dont think ive ever said that. im pretty sure i also said that the Chinese government is failing to reflect the will of its people and is suffering as a result.

Lein

4y

You're creating another artificial distinction, now between protesters who hold the white signs and the ones who use Communist imagery. You will find them side by side. Some protesters are violent, some are less so. If the Chinese government was as sensitive to the demands of Chinese workers as you're portraying it, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The chinese constitution means very little, it's a contradictory document the government interprets to justify any goal it wants like most constitutions.

If you think those agitating for revolution are just "bourgeois" then you don't know anything about chinese politics. The chinese middle class is the CPC's base. You've simply adopted the position of late 90s clintonites who swore up and down that college educated Southeastern chinese would overthrow the CPC anyday, but somehow turned it into a marxist position. At least those libs now acknowledged they were wrong. If by bourgeois you just mean Capitalists, the notion that chinese Capitalists want revolution is so ridiculous that its not even worth commenting on.

"Trot super position" So acknowledging the fact that most people don't want revolution is now the same as saying nobody wants revolution? Saying i wouldn't want a chinese revolution under the current conditions but would favor one under better conditions is fairly simple, idk why its so hard for you to understand. I will clarify that if chinese workers revolt, id support them under any conditions just as Marx supported the Paris commune or the bolsheviks the Austrian Revolution. If anything these are orthodox marxist positions, so again idk what you fail to understand.

The irony of throwing around the word "idealist" then, without irony, claiming the China is not socialist AND it is undergoing socialist construction. What does that even mean here? Developping the forces of productions? Were English Capitalists doing socialist construction when they alienated peasants from their land and left them to be starving paupers? Then let us remain inert as the flow of history inevitably carries us into socialism. China has been undergoing socialist deconstruction and capitalsit restoration. If it's trotskyist puritanism to point out the CPC is puts the interests of capital above labor then I am a trotskyist Puritan.

deadacc

4y

not possible to definitively argue

and i don't mean like "we are on the path to socialism" but more so that if you subscribe to the historical materialist understanding of the emergence of socialism its more of a quantity turns into quality thing that is impossible to definitively argue at this moment in time.

deadacc

4y

im just curious do you have any opinions on what socialist construction would like in the near future? not just china but really anywhere