almondmilk

6y

damn i was a huge socialist hater like yesterday i was s***posting for capitalism.
been reading up on arguments now and im ENLIGHTENED.

But from what i have seen most of you have been doing doing socialism dirty with some weak arguments seriously

Gojira

6y

You’d think maybe if the Iranian protestors were chanting for a socialist reform you all would be on their side.

Flower

6y

The underlying pattern of this thread is that you guys are in complete denial about what Socialism looks like in the real world vs your philosophical, idealistic wet dreams. It has failed in every country it has been tried and the few countries that still have it are in the process of privatizing. Cuba's updated constitution add the right to private property.

This thread would be better if it was called Communism thread to be more inclusive of the many other equally valid and clever ideas, local and global, industrial and environmental, collectivist and individual list, on how to reach the goal of a classless, stateless egalitarian society.

Benito Mussolini

6y

Yes yess the in fighting is strong with this one

Scratchin Mamba

6y

Tbf tho i don't think he claims to be a socialist anymore

Flower

6y

My wording isn't right all the time so lemme clarify when I say Socialist I mean Marxism-Leninist and anything derived from that like Stalinism/Maoism. All Anarchists are socialists (except anarcho capitalists). The general trend in human history has been away from collectivism and towards individualism as societies become more educated, more complex and technology evolves at a faster pace. So if we let this trend continue we will reach anarchy naturally. State socialism the way Marx envisioned it and Stalin implemented was a huge step back to where human culture was naturally evolving. We will eventually reach a post-capitalist state without forcing it. Anarchists actually argue that states intervening, providing social services, doing the fighting and power struggle for the average woman/man has been doing more harm than good. People need to be allowed to be in control of their whole lives and only then will people realize and appreciate solidarity, and how much they can achieve when they band together.

"My freedom is the freedom of all since I am not truly free in thought and in fact, except when my freedom and my rights are confirmed and approved in the freedom and rights of all men and women who are my equals.” - Michael Bakunin

Flower

6y

My wording isn't right all the time so lemme clarify when I say Socialist I mean Marxism-Leninist and anything derived from that like Stalinism/Maoism. All Anarchists are socialists (except anarcho capitalists). The general trend in human history has been away from collectivism and towards individualism as societies become more educated, more complex and technology evolves at a faster pace. So if we let this trend continue we will reach anarchy naturally. State socialism the way Marx envisioned it and Stalin implemented was a huge step back to where human culture was naturally evolving. We will eventually reach a post-capitalist state without forcing it. Anarchists actually argue that states intervening, providing social services, doing the fighting and power struggle for the average woman/man has been doing more harm than good. People need to be allowed to be in control of their whole lives and only then will people realize and appreciate solidarity, and how much they can achieve when they band together.

"My freedom is the freedom of all since I am not truly free in thought and in fact, except when my freedom and my rights are confirmed and approved in the freedom and rights of all men and women who are my equals.” - Michael Bakunin

Ethic

6y

To be clear also I have to disagree with you on this front, from my experience a welfare state with social services as well as free public education offered by the state is needed to support exactly those people which don't have the socio-economic means to pursue the ideals and education needed you're talking about since they're under constant financial pressure, which in turn takes a toll on their psyche and physical health. I'm not a fan of commodification, because it furthers the difference in wealth and quality of services that people receive.
It's a thin line between what is supposed to be achieved with self-responsibility and what everyone deserves, social services, as well as things such as health care belong to the latter kind in my opinion. And I can talk from personal experiences in the field, since I'm making my living as a social worker.
At least that's how things are run in my country and I think we're doing pretty well with it, we even started discussing a unconditional basic income for everyone, which in my opinion will be needed in the future when automatization gets rid of all the manuel labour jobs and we haven't reached a Jacque Fresco'esque Utopia of society yet where we don't need money to exchange goods and everyone has free access to goods which are sustainable (not everyone needs a Private Jet f.e., since this would take a toll on the environment, so there need to be regulations), but the problem is how to get there in the meantime and elevate the countries which haven't reached that technological standard yet. Pluralisation of modes of life don't have to be strictly tied to individualism in a society, collectivism will be an important part of structuring future societies, else there will be rebellions by those left out.

Flower

6y

How does that welfare state get the funds to provide these services? Either from the rich or the corporations who amassed their riches by robbing people of what was originally theirs, be it wages or their land/resources. Don't you see that this is almost always money stolen from the poor in your own country or abroad? What's the point of lifting a few hundred thousand people out of poverty when millions have to live in poverty because of this? Welfare states are providing chump change in exchange for the damages, injustices and inequality they allow to continue at the cost of their people. The welfare state is trying to make up for the negative externalities of the capitalist system in an extremely short-sighted, band-aid tier kind of way. It's welfare imperialism except instead of only benefiting the few rich, it distributes some of what it stole to the poor as well to keep them hush. It's an unsustainable system not just from an economic point of view but also a psychological, social and environmental point of view.

Ethic

6y

I understand what you're trying to say and you surely are right, especially on the "money stolen from abroad" in the case of my country, that's exactly why countries who are economically and technologically ahead have to give up part of their priviledges so the countries that are exploited can advance themselves. I understand the dilemma you're trying to explain all too good, since I'm part of the machinery that withholds those people from rebelling, as a social worker I'm doing exactly that: Band-aiding, and it's truly a dilemma.
Now, one way out of this is forcing the companies who are doing the exploit to obey human-rights and fair labour regulations abroad and taxing them higher. Which is a problem with multi-national companies, because they can just flee to another state where they get taxed less, so it has to happen globally.
I'm part of a comitee which tries to invoke exactly a law that attacks these problems in our country and abroad: https://corporatejustice.ch/about-the-initiative/
But you need an educated and well-off society to be able to pass such a law and understand that they're profiting from the companies exploiting these countries, you need a society which cares about collectivism and not individualism, else they'll just think about their own pockets and poor people may have a better sense of collectivism in their local communities, but they can't really think about aiding other countries if they struggle themselves everyday.
If you can offer me a better solution on how to change the system I'll gladly accept it, I'm not saying the result justifies the means, I don't see any other way out yet, we can't expect the exploited countries to change over night since the corruption is too strong.

Ethic

6y

@KimJongUn @Synopsis
Have you read my post about the situation in México? How do you propose a change to a true socialist society could be set in motion with the problems listed?
The both of you seem highly literate, so if you can share any information on the topic on how to tackle such corrupted structures I'll gladly accept them.
Demonstrations have been going on here in Oaxaca since 2006, people around here don't care for them anymore. The CNTE and SNTE unions have just started to use alternative textbooks in primary and secondary schools f.e. they teach children the history of Cuba and how Castro changed the lives of the poor through education. But I doubt this will change the whole society and we also know Castro didnt have the ideal answer. Especially since part of their planned curriculum seems very anachronic, like abandoning English f.e. and they're against state reformd that would weed out teachers that have inherited or bought their position and dont value nor have the qualities to work with the students. SNTE/CNTE are right in the points that the curriculum could be neoliberalized and that indigenous traditions could be lost tho. So the problem here especially in education is real complex.

Flower

6y

You look at revolutions in other much poorer countries, you look at the history of Mexico and Russia. It was people who had barely anything or any education who brought down the old systems. It is individualism, the promise of a better future where you can live out your dreams and not those of the people ruling over you that will motivate the people to fight for change. This is why the push to the left is failing everywhere right now. It's not that people don't want social justice, they understand deep down that there are too many institutions in the way of that justice and it's time to simplify things to make change happen more fairly and more quickly for everyone. The bigger and more powerful the government becomes, the slower it becomes at implementing and responding to change which is why all Marxist-Leninist states have stalled out.

This elitist idea that only educated middle class people would know what is best and until then you need a party to represent those ideas was created by Marx, Lenin and Stalin and there is no evidence to back it up. It's a lie.
The idea that people are too worried about where their next paycheck will come from is another lie created by social liberals and social democrats. People have gone on strike before there were any good labor laws, unemployment paychecks or a functioning health care system and they found ways to still feed themselves, pay rent and living expenses during that time. Refusal to work is our strongest bargaining power. The government and corporations fear the day we remember that we can go on strike and force change because at some point the strike is cutting through the bottom lines of the companies and the revenue of the government.
The need for forced collectivism/morality is a lie told by communitarians and social conservatives to people usually by those in power over their lives trying to manipulate them into working for their dreams and visions of how the world should work. The need for uniformity and conformity is a lie. Everyone has selfish motives. People want a social safety net primarily because they want it for themselves and their loved ones, not because they think of the stranger sleeping in the streets on the other side of the country much less the world. It's the sum of everyone following their own dreams and achieving self-realization that will lift us out of psychological poverty which in turn eliminates all other poverties because at the base of all poverty is the fact that we are being misled on what we really need and the issue that we are being denied to live our lives the way we want to.

History shows that none of these things were necessary or even existent back when people fought for them. So why do we do suddenly claim to be dependent on them to achieve social, political and cultural change? Almost every social justice and civil rights movement was dominated by those who are poor and not as educated and orders of magnitude less powerful who wanted more independence and individual rights from those who were in power and dictated how their lives should be. And they got them. To me, the next step is changing the paradigm. Making people remember they achieved change without the help of those power and even in the face of resistance of those in power. For me at least in the US it would be to embrace more direct democracy, transitioning to economic democracy or other alternatives to capitalism, having a government that supports local communities instead of micromanaging them, a change in our school curricula and popular culture aiding the paradigm shift, and most of all change how we look at money and labor.

Oh if you want me to continue this convo, you'll have to quote me in Anarchism thread. I'm not bumping this thread up again.

Synopsis

6y

what was the post

Gojira

6y

You’d think maybe if the Iranian protestors were chanting for a socialist reform you all would be on their side.

Ethic

6y

There were two posst in fact I directed at all of you, but none did respond. Both on Page 38 of the Thread.
One starts with:

"Y'all would cry how the sindicatos in México, "

But the more important longer one was the one starting with

"I don't know, because I don't know the people in this thread personally"

Thanks for finally replying anyway.

Ethic

6y

There were two posst in fact I directed at all of you, but none did respond. Both on Page 38 of the Thread.
One starts with:

"Y'all would cry how the sindicatos in México, "

But the more important longer one was the one starting with

"I don't know, because I don't know the people in this thread personally"

Thanks for finally replying anyway.

Synopsis

6y

basically are you just asking how me and the other poster you directed it at would prefer to transition to a socialist society and dealing with corrupt institutions in the process? im not super educated on the specifics of the situation in mexico so i cant really offer anything there specifically.

Replica

6y

学习习近平好榜样

Scratchin Mamba

6y

If you call this marxism by allah i will shoot myself right here

Scratchin Mamba

6y

If you call this marxism by allah i will shoot myself right here

KimJongUn

6y

dont be that person, this isnt the china bashing thread

Scratchin Mamba

6y

You can acknowledge that Western media spits out a bunch of propaganda without thinking it's a socialist country