inspired by a convo with @vicesvotive about when artists get "taught" in college classes and my opinion to why that s*** highkey cringe and problematic in the long run.

examples:

I always find it odd when black music is getting taught in classes by white teachers/lecturers. As a music major in undergrad studying jazz I saw first hand the way folks "of the culture" taught versus people "not of" the culture taught it was two very different things.

Whenever I see a white college go viral for offering a class about a black artist, it always reminds me of

Like, academically breaking down someone's art to me takes away all of what makes said art special. And for some people that "want to learn about the culture to feel closer to it" that think lectures and classes like this will help, it doesn't. It's only so much you can learn about a person's culture from a classroom versus being actually in it.

And I think in the long run this s*** is what kills the said genre. This s*** definitely played a part in why jazz has fallen how it has.

@Killa_K took that first course i think. unironically.

I forgot about that thread

users like him prove my point so goddamn much.

yeah i'm not trying to derail or anything, just remembered it but couldn't find the thread.

so

visibility bump

It's a delicate balance IMO. On one hand courses like this help open doors for the genre. Not that we need their approval/validation in spaces like these, but it's also dope to not be barred out of them either. I mean who wants to keep taking the same ole stuffy white classical course when wanting to learn about music in a university. Definitely a more nuanced issue. Just having enough black teachers would ultimately help I guess.

thoughts on lupe at MIT?

Hmmm

I think musicians are free to and should do their own lectures/classes if they see fit. I dont see a problem with that.

What my problem is, is black music being studied in classes by folks that arent a part of the culture and /or never experienced said culture so they can only examine it through an academic lens that ends up sanitizing and ridding the very core of what make that music special.

In layman’s terms: the jacob collier-ization of black music

On one hand courses like this help open doors for the genre.

How?

Just looked up the guy teaching the Kendrick Lamar course and he’s a black musician….whats the problem?

Also says he’s the founding director of the center of anti-racism and a civil rights attorney

By elevating it into places where whites would normally downplay it or think it shouldn't be taken seriously. And that's why I added that part about not needing their validation, cause f*** them, but there is something to be said about taking up space and saying "yeah nigga we in here too". Same reason why u see hip hop albums in the library of congress. But to your point, it doesn't really nail the point home if the professor can't connect culturally.

@op yes the parallel about jazz is the first thing that came to my mind

the contrast between the people who were really experimenting and pushing boundaries in 50s/60s with stuff like modal jazz, free jazz etc. but as the genre became more "academized"/formalized there was the side pushing more conservative outlook on it which ultimately won.

and it became seen as more of a pretentious and snooty music that was forced more into certain boundaries. which coincided with it essentially dying as an art form 'of the people'. Hard bop was the last hurrah of jazz with that cultural significance and then once late 60s-70s was hitting it was either be a formal musical conservative like the Marsalis family guys, embrace hybridized jazz fusion, or just exist purely on the avantgarde/underground level. When you have a situation like that it quickly helps the movement lose its core contemporary relevance

i don't have as much of an opinion on the modern topic you're bringing up but i think the similarities and differences are both important. big part of what created that situation for jazz is the barrier of entry/inherent standard of formal musicality (even when breaking its norms) plus the lack of focus on lyrics which is a lot different than how most any other popular music operates.

i'm not gonna disagree that white universities are colonial or that white academics teaching on the black perspective is riddled with problems. in fact, i think that's where the root of the problem you're stating is.

but i think sociology is important. I especially think approaching black art sociologically is very important. i think having deconstructive and critical engagement with art and culture is very, very important. fusing art and the critical theory of academia is a way for us to theorize about the causes of, reactions to, and effects of so many things that shape who we are as individuals and populations.

these courses, at least from their stated synopsi in your OP, aren't just appreciation courses with essays about your favorite songs. They're connecting policies from their the places of their upbringings, the lineage of hiphop, and their legacies into the thread of history

you're mad about people trying to replace cultural appreciation with sociological a***ysis and that's a totally valid problem to have. just not one you're gonna solve by coming at academia and sociology. Once again, that stems from the coloniality of whiteness.

I dont completely agree, I think documenting and archiving history of a genre and iconic artists especially when it comes to black genres is pretty important and that usually comes with academiazation.

And it's especially important when it comes to Hip-hop considering how Hip-hop originated. Its practically a social movement that should be explored in academic spaces and how certain material conditions lead to its creation.

But I see the point of how genres like Jazz was introduced to a snobbish crowd of academics that lead to its downfall

I would get the racial angle if this was exclusive to Black art and music but it's not so I don't really think it's an issue.

Like if your issue is specifically black music being discussed this way you can't really do anything about it cause it's school thats what they do

But also if your issue is music in general being discussed this way you also can't so anything cause you can't really define what's the appropriate way to discuss music or teach it.

Plus If it's any comfort you don't have worry about academia killing music like it did Jazz because music is controlled by the charts not school academics and the general society doesn't care at all about college and younger generations even less so.

I think you going to college and taking the classes maybe has you thinking they have more an impact than they actually do.

We're in an anti intellectual era so the power of academics is really insignificant

People like 9th, Lupe, Rob Swift and Mickey Factz also teaching courses in these schools also don't help.

The only school that was really approved in hip hop was KRS' Temple.

Hip Hop was always for the people and the streets. School of hard knocks.

They take these classes because they’re scared of black people…

A bit unrelated but I do think it’s hella dope when an artist is actually your professor like Nite Jewel oxy.edu/academics/faculty/ramona-gonzalez

Or when the artist gives their own lecture out of the blue

but what if acamedia was formed without the input of black voices on how their arts should be interpreted?

you are defending a conversation and construct that was designed by predominantly white men as to what are the proper ways for us to engage in sociological dissections of cultures we know no direct history of as those voices have never been included in how to discuss their art which is the main point in this entire discussion

you are telling OP he should not be maladjusted to the system of education as it is because it’s always been that way when the way it was formed didn’t include voices like OPs

radical and beyonce in the same title

and that’s the issue, the connection to culture. how can someone accurately tell the history of Kendrick’s upbringing and the historical contexts of the music from simply listening to the lyrics and deciphering it from their privileged lenses?

At no point have you introduced the voice of anyone from Compton, California who may have attended Gardena High into the conversation to say “nah, it wasn’t really like that in the 90s, Dot just grew up on a really rough street” it introduces so much nuance that these classes ultimately miss

when saba said "i got one B in a hip hop class i thought that s*** was stupid"

when i was in high school in our english textbook they had a whole thing about My Way Home by Common and it lowkey felt nasty the way they were talking about it even if it was cool to see Late Registration get love in a classroom