Kinda expanding on my discussion with @krishna_bound in a now-locked thread previously.

I've been reading a lot of left-critiques of modern-day contemporary identity politics, mainly stuff derived from Marx. Mainly articles deriving from "Racecraft" by Barbara Fields and Karen Fields and also the book "Mistaken Identity" by Asad Haider.

The gist of these writings is that we have forgotten the solidarity in class struggle in chasing the phantasmic ideal of race and how pivoting to this illusion has neutralized revolutionary anti-racism itself, and how identity politics has reinforced the ideals it was originally made to eradicate. There is no separation of racial and class issues in capitalism, because they are linked together. It is a collective struggle, and we should deal with these issues intersectionally, they are not separate from each other.

We have also forgotten that communities, especially ethnic ones, are not monolithic, and that not one person represents an entire community. People are diverse individuals by nature and are not hive minded generally.

I also feel like we now have constructed a hierarchy of our own, a "hierarchy of oppression", in that the more "oppressions" you carry on yourself, the more social status you have, and I don't like that, I believe it should be carried out horizontally. I believe all people should be given the same amount of credence, and we should take certain experiences into regard while synthesizing our own opinion, but there shouldn't be a measure of authority imposed by an individual who can say their word is "law".

We must tackle the hierarchical structures that makes oppression possible, rather than reinforce them, and it should be a united front to do so.

Deconstruct and overcome the constructed hierarchies of class, race and gender.

__

...the left’s critique of identity politics is not really a critique of identity politics at all, but of the cynical weaponization of identity for political ends... - Briahna Gray

Despite my disagreements with her, I think she was quite right with this quote.

__

Recommended reads:

theintercept.com/2018/08/26/beware-the-race-reductionist

cedrickmichael.substack.com/p/anti-racecraft-vs-colorblind-racism

thethirdrail.substack.com/p/racism-is-no-illusion-racecraft-is

daily.jstor.org/adolph-reed-jr-the-perils-of-race-reductionism

theintercept.com/2018/05/27/identity-politics-book-asad-haider

versobooks.com/blogs/2482-race-racism-and-racecraft

theintercept.com/2018/05/27/identity-politics-book-asad-haider

salon.com/2020/07/25/how-calling-someone-a-class-reductionist-became-a-lefty-insult

I would love to have a good discussion on this, and I understand why there may be some pushback on this ITT, since it's controversial but it's something that should be sorted out.

i do agree with the overall thesis, i don’t think it’s a coincidence the biggest era of identity politics followed right after occupy wall street. so we can all forget about class politics.

race and class are interlinked, with the principal being class but i always wonder with this discussion how important is race like we can all agree the radlib is overtly focused on identity but before that point what’s the fine line.

of course u can sub in and out race with gender sexuality etc just using race in my example.

Following because interested, have nothing insightful to add

sounds like a lot of white copium going on in OP's post

obviously when you look at this you feel that the guy is a total idiot

and i do think he doesn't really understand what he's talking about

but also, he's unintentionally brushed up against a truth with regards to nazism, marxism, and their relation to the political world of the 21st century

obviously, the nazis were not "socialists" (meaning marxists, or left-wingers more broadly)

but just as obviously, the nazis were a reaction to the popularity of marxism in political currents

to the extent that marxism is indeed predicated on an "oppressor narrative" (which is obviously reductive but is good enough for government work/this exercise), nazism took advantage of the people's inchoate understanding that they were under someone's heel and injected "identity politics" (another reductive phrase) into that narrative

hence the famous phrase "antisemitism is the socialism of fools"

there's a reason so many former reds became brownshirts or blackshirts

This is complicated by the fact that Nazism was also influenced by American race science of the late 19th and early 20th century

In this context, it's clear that NAZISM is actually the deformed offspring of Madison Grant and red socialist impulses

Since standing in opposition to Nazism has become the central moral narrative of the post-1945 west, it is socially incumbent to develop an ideology that is the inverse of Nazism

Since Nazis and Communists were mortal enemies, it's natural for people to utilize the left as the instantiation of modern antifascism

But because Nazism is the b****** child of progressive eugenicist race scientists from a century ago, a focus on race with precisely opposing beliefs becomes essential

How can we fight Nazism, the weaponization of "IDPOL," without employing "IDPOL"

Thus "class reductionism" (i.e, Marxism) is injected by "left IDPOL" to produce the modern left, and hence the tension between the "class reductionist" impulse and the "idpol" (ethnically invested) impulse

Basically we're shadowboxing against Hitler, Jim Crow and Madison Grant

assuming you aren’t trolling, you do realize most of the writing on this is done by non-white leftists, right, and i’m not even white myself

anti-racism and the topic of race holds importance but it should only be used in connection with class struggle, otherwise you get the neoliberal garbage you see today and the co-optation of radicalism by the capitalist machine

Liberals or the "modern left" don't engage in identity politics. They engage in representation politics.

Identity politics is slowly dying atp tbh. When you have idiots like AOC only appealing to suburbanites, white people, and white adjacents, you won't get anywhere

interesting distinction, what do you think is the difference

@op you’re speaking from a purely American perspective, and the Western Left is dead as a whole. It is barely left wing at most times and even then it isn’t “modern” considering most of their Socialist ideals are rarely beyond a SocDem scope

IDpol is dead on major third world left wing parties in Cuba, Vietnam, across South America, etc

Identity based Stratification is an effect on liberal capitalist policy that you’ll only find here in the US, racial politics aren’t as entrenched in other countries

I absolutely understand I am speaking from a "western" perspective, however I believe it is relevant here.

I don't believe it takes away from the points at all.

I wouldn’t call the Western Left “modern” then

The third world is home of the real execution and development of leftist theory

I don't engage in heavy "third-worldism" myself, as I believe it is myopic and tokenizing in retrospect, anywhere in the world has potential for something to happen. Anyway, yes, I do agree, these parties/organizations do focus more on class struggle but we must not reduce everything to it, we must work in conjunction. Reducing everything to economics can justify some bad stuff, including colonialism and imperialism.

Identity politics is rooted in the inclusive and radical agenda of Black Feminism. White liberals (and now ignorant and bad faith opposition) have co-opted this term into superficial politics of representation. Its origins can be found in the Combahee River Collective Statement (1977) by Demita Frazier, Beverly Smith, and Barbara Smith.

The original intent and context of identity politics put the black woman's struggle at the nexus of race, gender, sexual, and class oppressions.

“If Black women were free, it would mean that everyone else would have to be free since our freedom would necessitate the destruction of all the systems of oppression."

Freedom is achieved through an anti-sexist, anti-racist, and socialist political strategy. Liberals nor the Democratic party as a whole adhere to or accept this belief, therefore...they do not engage in identity politics. What is evident is that they care more about the faces of certain identities maintaining the status quo instead of radical change like identity politics originally intended.

yeah you're totally right

i did a history fair project on black feminism prominently featuring the CRC in high school

which i bring up not to try and d***-measure who knows more abt black feminism, just to say even i forget/aren't consciously cognizant of the fact that the CRC statement is where the phrase "identity politics" comes from

it really has been totally coopted

agree the origins of the very specific phenomena @op is talking about are basically western at their core but i disagree that the wider phenomena of leftism vs identitarianism is uniquely american or western. for sure, the current identification of idpol as used by western "leftist" people (intersectionality, twitter bs, etc - what people traditionally refer to under the term "idpol") is definitely uniquely western, so that's true, but the attempt of merging leftist politics with cultural identity is omnipresent. this isn't the same as stratification per-se, it's not the intersectional approach championed by western twitter leftists, but the vaguer concept of merging traditionally leftist ideas alongside socio-cultural facets and then conflicts arising from such as ruling parties or populations incorporate (or attempt to incorporate) cultural identity into their foundations is definitely not only outside the US but practically inescapable.

All them political parties are cults

AOC isn’t an idiot, pal. She’s CIA.

Nah, that's still twitter politics inside you.

I usually disagree with OP but he's right about this

You'd really like Adolph Reed Jr and his son Toure. They're both leftist professors of the Fields sisters school. You could lose a day easy looking up their interviews on youtube.

Leaving class out of the identity politics debate is just helping fascists get to power quicker

Is it really that prevalent tho? I feel like it’s mostly young uneducated people entertaining this

They go to extremes when it comes to debates such as these and climate change because they read stories about it every day but they’re not educated on class issues yet and the roots of it all

the fact Adolph Reed was canceled by the DSA, breadtube, etc dumbass twitter/adjacent circles for "class reductionism" and branded a right winger tells you everything you need to know and proves @op's point

what was Adolph Reed take ? also not surprised by the cancelling of those two they’re basically all libs