I wanted to turn my post from this thread into its own thread because I think it's an important point to make. NOT hating on hip-hop or even necessarily saying it's in a bad way, just talking frankly about how a genre that I love is defined. my post was on page 3

ktt2.com/bobby-shmurda-says-he-doesnt-listen-to-rap-music-bro-kinda-spittin-32550822

the legendary @El_Senor had said

The problem internet rap fans/KTT has whenever someone says this is that y'all come back with "there is plenty of great rap, you just don't know where to look.." or mention some rapper nobody has ever heard of as being an example of why the people saying this are wrong. But that's the point--if you have to look for quality, the quality isnt there anymore. Underground has always been dope--its the mainstream that people are talking about when they say this

And people disagreed with him, saying that it's incorrect to generalize the genre just by the mainstream

What I said was that he was right:

It's not that quality isn't there, but if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it's not going to factor into people's perception of trees or forests much. by definition the mainstream is the bulk of the genre: one song that gets heard by a million people will shape more people's perceptions of hip-hop than 100 songs by an underground rapper that only 1,000 die-hards ever hear.

Because of this, when an art form, genre or subgenre is in a healthy place, and it puts its best foot forward to the world, the work of greatest practitioners becomes known by everybody and defines the perception that the majority of people have of the art form/genre/subgenre.

even before the current internet saturated world, you could go halfway across the world and meet someone who knows tupac or em or 50. because they are legends. this is not a diss on the good underground music itself; even back then, there were underground dudes who had better bars or flow or less wack or violent subject matter than all those guys. but the big dogs defined hip-hop because they had the microphone.

the guys with the microphone don't have it just because of talent -- there's money and clout and various other considerations into who gets a platform. but they have the platform nevertheless, and they create what hip-hop is in the public's mind

with that being said 1) i dont think new mainstream music is bad as some people are saying (although i admit i dont keep up with new s*** like i used to) and 2) the internet has upended the mainstream-underground distinction greatly. but however the financials and logistics of hip-hop music releases changes in the future, the simple formula of "more people hear a song = more people think 'this is what hip hop is'" remains

Huh ?

there’s only so many ways you can repackage this discussion. good attempt

a simpler way to put it would be that when an art form or genre is giving 110%, you have so much good artwork coming out the ass that even the billboard bait is classic

Normally I would agree, but I think streaming changed this to a degree.

Thats a golden age, we had one in the 90s and one in the late 10s, hip hop has the benefit of being able to incorporate any other genre into itself so that will keep it alive as long as music is alive

Yuck

metro boomin is kinda carrying mainstream rap for now which is pretty crazy

heroes and villains and spider-verse are the only rap albums people have given af about this year

Totally agree. There will always be interesting things coming from the underground of any genre. Human expression isn’t a monolith.

So when people make claims like “The state of blank genre is this right now”, it’s obviously referencing the mainstream, widespread perception of the genre because the majority of music listeners aren’t listening to genres deeper than a mainstream level

I don’t get why you want to even be a part of a music discussion community if you think the most important conversations going on are about how ok jack harlow & Spider-Man albums were

didnt read, + f*** the mainstream

I said in December on here that Heroes & Villains > Her Loss and they called me crazy

Most genres don’t even have mainstream representation

Any rational person understands most genres probably have a community they’re just not a part of . Suggesting it’s “unhealthy” or nonexistent cus it’s not cracking top 100 is just so sad & defeatist I don’t think the average accountant thinks this . To see this narrative on a dam music forum is just mind boggling

You have to understand that the average person isn’t frequenting forums like this, nor do they care about what’s happening in the underground of any genre.

These discussions aren’t about what is or isn’t happening in the underground because people like us are in the minority, we’re not the average music listener

my hot take is that 21 savage is the weakest link on both albums

Ya that’s my point, the average person isn’t an avid music fan. they probably do have some self awareness about that though. Might understand their lack of knowledge & wouldn’t suggested the fraction of what can break through to a commercial level defines a genre somehow

I could see this line of thinking coming from some financebro, car guy that thinks art is dumb & only what penetrates the mainstream matters but to see this same thinking on a place explicitly for music discussion is just bizarre cus I would assume you must like or care about music to even end up here right

It’s crazy how every generation says this and no one ever has the self awareness to realize they sound dumb. The “better music” of yesterday was the new s***ty music of that time to people who were older

The point is doing backflips over your head

I agree with this to a certain extent, but even when oldheads were saying that in the 2010s, the artists they were s***ting on were still doing very well and creating large audiences for themselves.

There hasn’t been a single #1 rap album all year and the year’s halfway over.

I’m not saying “rap is dead” but it definitely needs some creative shakeup from the dudes at the top

21 doesnt have a good album past savage mode

spider man soundtrack was ass

The point is that people remember/know about the most popular artists from a medium? Wat a revelation I guess dominoes defines Italian food

Do you think people view the 90s as the golden age of hip-hop because of underground artists?

Out at El Senor praise

Only thing El Senor is a “legend” for is being a nonblack person that says the n word while simultaneously referring to black people as “blacks”