Mel

4y

· edited

Anyway @Synopsis that's a whole other topic and neither of us are legal scholars

going back to the subject

Even the best examples of the most effective public schools in a diverse city like NYC have been plagued by inequality

This is primary due to the fact entrance exams for even public schools exist if they are highly ranked. The students most prepared for those exams would have been in higher tax paying areas of the city and went through a better primary school curriculum as a result.

I support subsidies to lower income students to cover things such as specialized tutoring, vouches to attend private schools, and more choice. I've seen this work for me and 1000s of others students from NYC through HEOP, SEEK, and EOP at the higher education level.

I encourage anyone to research these programs. They are present in all of NY's public schools and a lot of the Uni. of Cal. schools -- even Berkeley. Private institutions such as Cornell, University of Rochester in NY also have the program.

It provides substantial grants, reduced admission standards, required tutoring/programming, specialized personal/academic counseling and textbook cost coverage. There are set income standards and academic standards that target lower income students who show potential for higher education (despite having lower stats).

Many of these programs have been very successful. They were founded in the 1970s in NYC, originally targeted for increasing the number of minorities in high ed.

Social mobility is the realistic answer to this, poverty perpetuates the inequality in public schools and always will no matter you do until you completely poverty. Private K-12 schools are not the concern. If you're in a poorer area of the city, you have virtually no choice but to attend the s*** high school in your area that the Board of Ed. assigned you when you graduated middle school. (That's at least how it works in NY)

Higher income parents will send their kids to richer school districts if you eliminated private school options (which isn't even legal, anyway cough).

I can attest to the success of my own Alma Mater's EOP (Educational Opportunities Program) which has taken me a first generation american and failed high school student, invested me, and gave the social mobility needed for me to attend a good school and graduate into a profession of high income. In 4 years I went from living in a household with a income of lower than 17k all my life, to a salary several times higher, with a paid for masters degree on top of that.

My story isn't unusual in these programs, they have graduated 10s of thousands over the decades of their existence and changed many lives.

Pedro

4y

So clearly you must see why trump and betsy devos are dangerous here? Guaranteed biden's sec of education would be way more qualified, not just some billionaire pushing charter schools because they're set to profit from it.

krishna bound

4y

egalitarianism isn't really about worth solely though, it's about equality in the sense of similarity in opportunity and ability between individuals. you say "no child is mediocre", but i mean, that's not really true, there are some people who are mediocre educationally or mediocre at participating in controlled environments, but will excel elsewhere. this isn't necessarily anything about "worth"; I mean, you can say that education can be centered on recognizing "uniqueness of each child", but if you're assuming a standardized way to allow that recognition, you have to assume at least some level of foundational similarity among children, or you'd have to separately assume uniqueness can be recognized in a uniform fashion, which is kind of contradictory to the idea of individualism because you're making a pre-existing assumption on how individualism can or should be recognized.

the idea of worth is solely relative to the needs and recognition of society, in the greater abstract of the universe that doesn't mean anything obviously, but on a dialectic level it's not really possible to solely eliminate the concept of worth. even in a family, the most basic communal unit, worth can be summarized by the ability to deliver on the duties which perpetuate the unit; you can attempt to strip worth from a government level but it's always going to exist on an abstract social level, even more so in an individualistic society because individual localities would be almost solely determined by merit of what qualifies worth to remain in the tribe. even if that worth is simply accredited to participation, that worth still exists as an abstract recognition within the group.

the only way you can say no child is mediocre educationally would be if you rejected a doctrine of individuality, but i mean, considering your political positions, that doesn't make a lot of sense, unless i'm misunderstanding what you're referring to. plus, i mean, wouldn't the idea of recognizing mediocrity be the foundation for providing the respective needs to someone in order to gap that mediocrity to allow them to have fulfilling lives? the idea of institutional standardization - even if that standardization is based in terms which suggest otherwise - is a liberal idea which assumes giving everyone the same options works because everyone is completely equal and the same. unless i'm misunderstanding, that's why i'm a bit confused about you wanting public schooling - it makes more sense to thus not believe in any form of standardized public institution, but the mere idea of a standardized institute assumes a level of stripped individuality to begin with

DeShazor

4y

Ban all private schools, it shouldn't be a thing. All schools, colleges should be public with no tuition, it should be a human right to educate yourself rather than having f***ing student loans smh

Synopsis

4y

Lmfao shut up

Pedro

4y

No smart ass, hyper-literal reply?

Synopsis

4y

no, because this isn't about voting.

Pedro

4y

There it is! I wonder how the people that control federal funding for education come into that power

Synopsis

4y

the attack on public schools has historically a bipartisan effort dummy.

Pedro

4y

Under Obama the high school graduation rate was at an all time high. He allocated an additional 50 billion for Pell grants that go to low income college students. Stafford lowered their interest rates on student loans under Obama, they cracked down on bullshit "for profit" colleges like Trump U and they were the first administration to bring attention to the school-to-prison pipeline problem but keep goin off, dummy.

Mel

4y

Because amendments and interpretation exist and without it this country would have failed a long ago and the world would have been worse off

Synopsis

4y

would love to read that thesis ngl

Hamington

4y

I'd share, but there's a lot about my own experience at a charter over the past year (never again) and is somewhere around 70 pages - so I'd instead recommend reading Michael Fabricant's "Charter Schools and the Corporate Makeover of Public Education: What's at Stake?" because it's a much more data-driven a***ysis of charter/privatization's failure.

Synopsis

4y

I will for sure check that out. Anything else youd rec in the same vein?

Hamington

4y

In terms of books, not off the top of my head - just a lot of PDFs about other issues plaguing charters

hoopsplayer21

4y

need to get around to reading this all but interesting points made. my friend sent me this. let me know what y’all think on it.

hoopsplayer21

4y

when arguing this subject to my friends, i always personally get stuck up on how to stop teachers from being complacent. you have to incentive those that teach with things like pensions and unions, but how can we at the same time make sure that these teachers do not get complacent and instead continue to care for their students and the education they are receiving?

Synopsis

4y

Their entire line of arguing is based on a myth lol

hoopsplayer21

4y

do you think currently teachers are any bit of the problem in our education system or is a much more overarching issue. im not saying i even personally feel this way, that teachers are the problem that is, i never had a time where i felt my teacher was complacent just due to a pension or what not. i just want to know if you think there could be anything done directly to the way our education system provides for teachers or the way that teachers go about teaching.
edit: some of my grammar was and still is horseshit but i had to clean it up a bit

Synopsis

4y

Teachers should 100% have more of a say in regard to curriculum and how to teach it

Mel

4y

Because amendments and interpretation exist and without it this country would have failed a long ago and the world would have been worse off