Aug 4, 2020One time I was in some Pearl Harbor Memorial Hall and an old couple was reading about how many people died in Pearl Harbor and said "those f***ing Japs"
Like bruh like 100x more innocent civilians died in those bombings than Pearl Harbor. Not saying people shouldn't be sad about that tragedy but you can't only be sad about one of those events and not feel sorry for how much more people died because of it. But that's the American way I guess...
Aug 4, 2020
Aug 4, 2020The leadership of Imperial Japan were terrible people
But this documentary shows how clueless and innocent the actual people of Japan were. They interview Japanese civilians from the time and all of them basically had no idea what was going on other than that they were at war.
Aug 4, 2020"in 1943 and 1944 Japan tried to enter peace talks but the USA refused" - Nope, their in a state of total war. Due to oil shortage and logistical reasons, they ended up losing the war quickly after victories of Midway, Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, etc.
Aug 4, 2020·1 replyCudderwalksThe Russians did join the war at the very end which is ultimately why Japan surrendered. The Japanese leadership preferred to end up in American hands than Soviet because they knew the Americans would generally allow things to remain the same.
Nuking Japan was not necessary, in 1943, 1944 and earlier in 1945 Japan tried to offer a conditional surrender but the USA refused
Never heard about peace talks in 1943 and 1944 since Japan still occupied many islands in the Pacific during this time, if you could link me sources that would be great.
Again, I feel like it was a necessary evil because with an invasion of Japan, It would not only take the lives of Americans but also the lives of the Japanese. The Japanese military was even training the civilians to kill. Japan was already losing the war and they were pulling their entire military to defend Japan. I mean what wouldve happened if no bombs were dropped? Millions dead? A 3-4 year war in Japan that would've completely destroyed the country. The Soviet Union occupying half of Japan and the US occupying the other half?
I feel like we shouldn't feel pride or shame due it being a means to an end. WW2 wasn't a Vietnam or an Iraq War type war. It was a war against those that wanted to split the world
- Aug 4, 2020·editedBVL
Never heard about peace talks in 1943 and 1944 since Japan still occupied many islands in the Pacific during this time, if you could link me sources that would be great.
Again, I feel like it was a necessary evil because with an invasion of Japan, It would not only take the lives of Americans but also the lives of the Japanese. The Japanese military was even training the civilians to kill. Japan was already losing the war and they were pulling their entire military to defend Japan. I mean what wouldve happened if no bombs were dropped? Millions dead? A 3-4 year war in Japan that would've completely destroyed the country. The Soviet Union occupying half of Japan and the US occupying the other half?
I feel like we shouldn't feel pride or shame due it being a means to an end. WW2 wasn't a Vietnam or an Iraq War type war. It was a war against those that wanted to split the world
I was incorrect about 1943/44, Japan only put out “peace feelers” to
see what it would take for the US to accept a a Japanese surrender and it was only a small circle of Japanese leadershipIt’s clear however that months before the bombings that Japan tried to surrender under the same terms that the US basically gave them after the nukes were dropped.
"The stark fact is that the Japanese leaders, both military and civilian, including the Emperor, were willing to surrender in May of 1945 if the Emperor could remain in place and not be subjected to a war crimes trial after the war. This fact became known to President Truman as early as May of 1945."
mises.org/library/hiroshima-myth
The thing you need to remember is, the Japanese never really expected to fight to the finish when they started the war. Some popular culture notwithstanding, the Japanese never saw the war as ending with an invasion of the US. They expected that they'd wipe out the US' Pacific fleet, take the Philippines, Hong Kong, and the Dutch East Indies, and then the US would sue for peace
Aug 5, 2020
JbreezyondeckOpened Pandora’s box for nuclear warfare and stockpiling. It was bound to happen but the most surprising part is that it has not happened again since
Sad but present time calm reality?
Idek how to feel about this tbh.
- Aug 5, 2020
ARCADE GOONI have been to Hiroshima before and have visited ground zero of the explosion (a hospital) as well as the museum dedicated to the atomic bombings. It was part of a cultural exchange I was invited to by the Japanese Foreign Ministry for European university students. The tour guide downplayed the role of Imperial Japan's atrocities and bit his tongue over the topic of the US role in the Pacific War.
In my opinion: Anybody who defends these bombings is an absolutely horrible human being. So many civilians were killed in a moment where the USA basically had already won the war. It's mostly Americans defending this, anybody with half a brain recognizes that this stuff was horrific. The USA basically did it to show off to the Soviets that they have atomic capabilities. It was also to prevent the Soviet Union from invading Japan, which would have meant that Japan might not have been administrated by the USA but by the Soviets instead, which the USA did not want. So many civilians died just for some political strategizing. The Cold War started the moment that bomb hit.
The reason Japan ultimately gave up the war wasn't even because of the bomb, but because of the threat of Soviet invasion looming over them.
Going to the museum was weird, since Japanese are allied with the USA. While they don't openly say it, I think many Japanese hate the USA. The only reason they swallow their pride is because they hate China more and see the USA as an useful ally against their neighbor and historic nemesis
Great post. I remember growing up learning about Hiroshima having it basically be justified to me all the way through High School.
- Aug 5, 2020
Lu The Ruler· editedShould have never happened like most things that were bad that America tries to spin as necessary to justify it when teaching little kids.
No the world is not better off because of it wtf
Lmao wow didn’t even see this post when I wrote my last one.
- Aug 5, 2020·2 repliesARCADE GOON
I have been to Hiroshima before and have visited ground zero of the explosion (a hospital) as well as the museum dedicated to the atomic bombings. It was part of a cultural exchange I was invited to by the Japanese Foreign Ministry for European university students. The tour guide downplayed the role of Imperial Japan's atrocities and bit his tongue over the topic of the US role in the Pacific War.
In my opinion: Anybody who defends these bombings is an absolutely horrible human being. So many civilians were killed in a moment where the USA basically had already won the war. It's mostly Americans defending this, anybody with half a brain recognizes that this stuff was horrific. The USA basically did it to show off to the Soviets that they have atomic capabilities. It was also to prevent the Soviet Union from invading Japan, which would have meant that Japan might not have been administrated by the USA but by the Soviets instead, which the USA did not want. So many civilians died just for some political strategizing. The Cold War started the moment that bomb hit.
The reason Japan ultimately gave up the war wasn't even because of the bomb, but because of the threat of Soviet invasion looming over them.
Going to the museum was weird, since Japanese are allied with the USA. While they don't openly say it, I think many Japanese hate the USA. The only reason they swallow their pride is because they hate China more and see the USA as an useful ally against their neighbor and historic nemesis
"The Japanese plan for defeating the invasion was called Operation Ketsugō (決号作戦, ketsugō sakusen) ("Operation Codename Decisive"). The Japanese planned to commit the entire population of Japan to resisting the invasion, and from June 1945 onward, a propaganda campaign calling for "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" commenced.47 The main message of "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" campaign was that it was "glorious" to die for the holy emperor of Japan, and every Japanese man, woman, and child should die for the Emperor when the Allies arrived."
Atom bombs killed way less people then that.. coulda been a lot worse
OPAug 5, 2020·1 replyI'm of the opinion that
1) it was, in general, one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century. Absolutely horrible act of humanity for it to occur.
2) to place all of the blame on the US is inaccurate and lacks context. I'm not in any way going to defend the decision, but I'm also not going to pretend that the alternatives (mainland invasion of Japan) wouldn't have been horrible too. The build up to it is really what's at blame -- the atrocities of the Japanese military government, Pearl Harbor, the horrible War in the Pacific, and the US' lack of focus on peace talks/reluctance of the Japanese government to engage in those talks because of their disjointedness.
3) this is kind of a sub-thought, but I can totally understand how someone whose family was affected by the Japanese military government's atrocities would accept nothing less than for Japan to give an unconditional surrender due to fear of what might happen if Japan's military leaders had the chance to gain power again. Think about if it was Nazi Germany in this situation. People in neighboring places like France would have not blinked an eye if it was between nuking German citizens and ensuring that the Nazi's no longer had any power. Not saying it's morally right, just giving the perspective after reading 92 BRICKS posts.
4) again, my feelings are that it was a horrible atrocity and morally wrong 100%. However, do I feel like today's world is better off because of it? Yes. Nukes are still a threat in the world, but I feel like if Japan got invaded instead of nuked and there were magical computer simulations that were 100% accurate run to figure out what would have happened in the resulting 50 years after...over 50% (at least) of the simulations would end with a nuclear holocaust.
Aug 5, 2020·1 replyYou Disappoint Me"The Japanese plan for defeating the invasion was called Operation Ketsugō (決号作戦, ketsugō sakusen) ("Operation Codename Decisive"). The Japanese planned to commit the entire population of Japan to resisting the invasion, and from June 1945 onward, a propaganda campaign calling for "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" commenced.47 The main message of "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" campaign was that it was "glorious" to die for the holy emperor of Japan, and every Japanese man, woman, and child should die for the Emperor when the Allies arrived."
Atom bombs killed way less people then that.. coulda been a lot worse
I know this is coming in retrospect, but If the bomb could kill the Japanese appetite for war, why would they commit their entire population to a war effort that was clearly failing at that point?
- Aug 5, 2020
Some horrible people ITT
- Aug 5, 2020Bri10
I know this is coming in retrospect, but If the bomb could kill the Japanese appetite for war, why would they commit their entire population to a war effort that was clearly failing at that point?
japanese people resolve were unbreakable at that time
Aug 5, 2020ARCADE GOONI have been to Hiroshima before and have visited ground zero of the explosion (a hospital) as well as the museum dedicated to the atomic bombings. It was part of a cultural exchange I was invited to by the Japanese Foreign Ministry for European university students. The tour guide downplayed the role of Imperial Japan's atrocities and bit his tongue over the topic of the US role in the Pacific War.
In my opinion: Anybody who defends these bombings is an absolutely horrible human being. So many civilians were killed in a moment where the USA basically had already won the war. It's mostly Americans defending this, anybody with half a brain recognizes that this stuff was horrific. The USA basically did it to show off to the Soviets that they have atomic capabilities. It was also to prevent the Soviet Union from invading Japan, which would have meant that Japan might not have been administrated by the USA but by the Soviets instead, which the USA did not want. So many civilians died just for some political strategizing. The Cold War started the moment that bomb hit.
The reason Japan ultimately gave up the war wasn't even because of the bomb, but because of the threat of Soviet invasion looming over them.
Going to the museum was weird, since Japanese are allied with the USA. While they don't openly say it, I think many Japanese hate the USA. The only reason they swallow their pride is because they hate China more and see the USA as an useful ally against their neighbor and historic nemesis
I f*** with this post on every level
and Idk how to word this in a way that doesn't sound horrendous, but I don't think any of us anywhere are still here if we don't see the atrocities of a nuclear bomb on a real entity. I dont have an answer for who that should've been, I wish it would be nobody, but I think the atrocities of these bombings are literally the only thing that stopped someone from popping fly
I know this sounds atrocious, but pls understand Im not morally rectifying the Japanese having to be the martyrs
- Aug 5, 2020Jbreezyondeck
Opened Pandora’s box for nuclear warfare and stockpiling. It was bound to happen but the most surprising part is that it has not happened again since
I think the results of that joint have been the only thing that has unanimously put the fear of God into sitting leaders. Mustard bombs, drone strikes, tanks, I think every thing before the nuke hasn't been hazardous enough for leaders/those in power (super-rich, etc.) to put their asses on the line
only way I can see a nuke being used is if NK finally got swarmed
- Aug 5, 2020·editedYou Disappoint Me
"The Japanese plan for defeating the invasion was called Operation Ketsugō (決号作戦, ketsugō sakusen) ("Operation Codename Decisive"). The Japanese planned to commit the entire population of Japan to resisting the invasion, and from June 1945 onward, a propaganda campaign calling for "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" commenced.47 The main message of "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" campaign was that it was "glorious" to die for the holy emperor of Japan, and every Japanese man, woman, and child should die for the Emperor when the Allies arrived."
Atom bombs killed way less people then that.. coulda been a lot worse
They didn't even end the war because of the atomic bombs. It ended because of the Soviets wanting to invade.
- Aug 5, 2020Young D
I'm of the opinion that
1) it was, in general, one of the greatest tragedies of the 20th century. Absolutely horrible act of humanity for it to occur.
2) to place all of the blame on the US is inaccurate and lacks context. I'm not in any way going to defend the decision, but I'm also not going to pretend that the alternatives (mainland invasion of Japan) wouldn't have been horrible too. The build up to it is really what's at blame -- the atrocities of the Japanese military government, Pearl Harbor, the horrible War in the Pacific, and the US' lack of focus on peace talks/reluctance of the Japanese government to engage in those talks because of their disjointedness.
3) this is kind of a sub-thought, but I can totally understand how someone whose family was affected by the Japanese military government's atrocities would accept nothing less than for Japan to give an unconditional surrender due to fear of what might happen if Japan's military leaders had the chance to gain power again. Think about if it was Nazi Germany in this situation. People in neighboring places like France would have not blinked an eye if it was between nuking German citizens and ensuring that the Nazi's no longer had any power. Not saying it's morally right, just giving the perspective after reading 92 BRICKS posts.
4) again, my feelings are that it was a horrible atrocity and morally wrong 100%. However, do I feel like today's world is better off because of it? Yes. Nukes are still a threat in the world, but I feel like if Japan got invaded instead of nuked and there were magical computer simulations that were 100% accurate run to figure out what would have happened in the resulting 50 years after...over 50% (at least) of the simulations would end with a nuclear holocaust.
It's definitely due to the way history has contextualized those two nations. bc nuke or not, civilians are broadly demonized in Nazi Germany for aiding and abetting the rise (obviously not on the top of the list, but on there). and even myself, I never really thought of the concept of everyday Japanese people promoting imperialism and conquering of other innocents.
I dont think either group deserves a nuke, but it would've definitely been a closer to a "black" event if it happened to Germ instead of the "grey"ness we got
- Aug 5, 2020·1 reply
so...from your point of view US should be nuked for what they did to black people, native american or vietnamese?
Aug 5, 2020
orangejuiceHow did I know this thread would have 2/3 users at least claiming that the innocent Japanese citizens deserved to get bombed due to the atrocities committed by their government.
Similar to what Synop said, you guys are s***ty people and sick in the head.
rvi ⚡Aug 5, 2020·1 replyyeah all those children totally deserved mass murder
- Aug 5, 2020·3 replies
TIL some americans actually defend this lol
and theyre on KTT
- rvi ⚡Aug 5, 2020
also worth mentioning the non-nuclear bombing of the japan mainland too which also killed hundreds of thousands of civilians
- rvi ⚡Aug 5, 2020·edited·1 replyrwina sawayama
TIL some americans actually defend this lol
and theyre on KTT
tbh i think its a pretty common belief here. when i was in school they basically taught us that it was "necessary" to win the war. i remember in a history class we had a debate over if it was justified or not. they never really emphasized the real effects of it
never underestimate how many idiots and horrible people we have here
