Birdie

2y

What if everyone else doesn’t know anything about Islam in a discussion about the depiction of its prophet or the Muslim minority experience of living in the west

Right…

Birdie

2y

What if everyone else doesn’t know anything about Islam in a discussion about the depiction of its prophet or the Muslim minority experience of living in the west

Right…

Womanpuncher69

2y

ktt been arguing early in the morning recently

blonded

2y

I don't think you necessarily need to be an Islamic scholar to make claims on if people ought to abide by rules of groups they aren't part of

Birdie

2y

Except that’s not what’s going on in this thread nor the importance when thinking about the position of an academic representing an institution which serves various demographics of students

deleteduser2863

2y

Wait we can say retarded now?

deleteduser2863

2y

Wait we can say retarded now?

Birdie

2y

if you understood Christianity in Islam, you’d understand that both respective people believe in Jesus as almost entirely separate person and being

From a Muslim in perspective, how Christians view Jesus is an entirely separate sort of being with a huge divergence in agreed upon life history and attributes

Why do you think in Jordan Lebanon Syria they have allowed churches to remain for thousands of years?

Your argument doesn’t coincide with reality or how people view Jesus differently across Christianity and Islam

Muslims can agree who are not extremist that Christians have right to display Jesus through their own lens and religion

However, if you’re Muslim you’re obviously held to a different standard, not to depict Jesus/isa

And there’s no value in this argument, because Christians have no version of Mohammad themselves or right to depict him from a religious pov

ASAKI

2y

No, the fundamental understanding, as far as I remember, is that Muslims and Christians follow the same Isa (as), but that Christianity has corrupted the image of him through idolatry and the shirk of inflating Prophet Isa as the Son of Allah.

The reality is that the majority of Muslims, at least in the Middle East, don't care enough to postulate on Christians in the region because it's easier to simply co-exist, even though in their eyes it's shirk, as the Qu'ran posits protection for People of the Book. But, simultaneously, I have known many Muslims that will not even step foot in a household with Jesus iconography and will find it offensive. They are not necessarily "extremist" either, simply fundamentalist. I was the same when I was younger.

Likewise, I don't see why the Muslim students in question could not have just turned off their cameras, and explained to the professor afterwards that they wish the historical art would at least have Prophet Muhammad's face blotted or shown art like hilya that do not have visual descriptions but a painted oral description. Put the professor in a sensitivity meeting. But why fire her?

Ultimately, I think we're in a standstill in argument. I don't think either of us are making any ground.

ASAKI

2y

I also gotta stop the discussion a little cause I'm typing this s\*\*\* through my phone and I have to actually do some work

Birdie

2y

Museum.

You don’t have art history professors out here (who aren’t black) drawing new Jim Crow style depictions in 2022

HURRY UP kiddash3r

2y

The teacher didn't draw anything tho?
They showcased paintings from centuries ago

deleteduser2863

2y

Wait we can say retarded now?

Gojira

2y

Meanwhile

Birdie

2y

Arab Christians themselves consider the Muslim idea of Jesus as completely fraudulent. Additionally, the differences in the attributes of Jesus are based on very different interpretations of Old Testament which create an entirely different historical being of the man/prophet — not just thinking about the difference between his divinity or not.

They do not follow the same Jesus in reality; their approach to understanding him and sources differ so greatly it creates an entirely different prophet.

I agree with you completely on your second paragraph.

On your conclusion, I differ where I agree with the action because the students themselves and community are against the normalisation of depicting the prophet as an activity. Which honestly seems to be what the professor was trying to push the boundary for.

ASAKI

2y

This is because Christians have a different perspective on the lineage of the Holy Word. In their eyes, the Qu'ran is a complete set of lies created after the Bible, while in the eyes of Islam, the Bible and Old Testament are corrupted versions of what the Qu'ran is. In the perspective of Christians, our depiction of Jesus is heretical, while in our perspective, their depiction and theological biography of Isa (as) is shirk, but the fundamental outline of who he was is not.

If we're talking about historicity that's an entirely different issue entirely, because there's very little known about Prophet Isa. But I'm just saying they're supposed to be the same people (as we follow the same God), it's just that their interpretation is muddled and not correct in Islamic lore.

However, I don't think it's a normalization. I think the professor believed "I know this may be offensive to some, but it's an important part of how art and culture changed throughout the Islamic world." Even in the article itself, the professor explains that she doesn't want to paint a portrait (hehe) that the Islamic world is one monoculture. And, to be frank, there is quite a bit of animosity that Muslims outside the Arab sphere feel almost isolated as their cultures and traditions may not seem entirely orthodox to Arab culture, and thus seen as "less Muslim".

In regards to the painting, of course, yes, it's a sin to depict Prophet Muhammad. We can all agree on this. It is also entirely your right to be offended, as I initially was. But, when we live in a multicultural society, and when we especially intentionally and knowingly go into a class that discusses the historicity of art and culture and that may include pieces from Islamic cultures that are not strictly Arab-- there is a certain responsibility set that you must know your own comfort whether or not you want to see that content.

Likewise, I'm not going to berate a Christian student if they believe discussing the historicity of Jesus is offensive (which is a class taught in MANY universities), but I will berate them if they willingly choose to go into a class that will discuss it and call for the lecturer to be fired, even when that discussion is taking part in an academic environment where it is commonly accepted that the students are seeing it within a different lens than that of religion.

My wrist is f***ing killing me typing this on a Pro Max, so I will end my argument here. I see your perspective entirely, but I just wished to input mine as a fellow Muslim.

Mesaih

2y

Religious people dont try to push your beliefs onto rational people challenge

Gojira

2y

It’s a painting from the 14th century, not a cartoon of the prophet giving head

red eagle

2y

It has to hurt u that islamophobia doesnt hit as hard as it used to right 😆😆

Gojira

2y

No, it hurts to see the people of Iran and Afghanistan living in literal hell while in the West they argue over semantics like this.