shaleirose

2w

Why does this seem to be a common criticism for only comic book movies?

Ensemble casts are a regular thing in film, but the only time I ever hear people complaining about a movie being too crowded or not spending too much time with the main character is for comic book films

Primate

2w

I think there’s a subtle but importance difference between an ensemble movie designed around an ensemble and a movie literally called Superman. If half a dozen supporting characters and plot threads are constantly competing with Superman for focus, obviously people are gonna notice it more.

green man

2w

How do feel about Brand New Day with Punisher, Jean Grey and Hulk?

Primate

2w

That's fair. It doesn’t feel as overstuffed to me because Hulk, Punisher and Jean all feed back into Peter’s central conflict. They’re not just separate side plots fighting for attention. Jean for instance is literally just the villain of the film.

Superman by contrast feels busier to me because it keeps introducing and servicing new threads without giving the central story much room to breathe.

Just think about how much this movie is trying to introduce. For a film called Superman you’ve got Lex, the entire Justice Gang, Ultraman, the Engineer, the whole pocket universe concept, a foreign war, the Daily Planet crew, Clark’s parents and their reveal, Jimmy’s subplot, Metamorpho, Krypto, all of it.

None of those things are automatically bad, and most of them do connect back to Superman. It’s just a LOT of stuff for one movie to keep servicing. That’s why it feels overstuffed to me, not because Superman literally isn’t on screen enough, but because the movie feels like it’s constantly fighting for room to fit everything in.

Primate

2w

I think there’s a subtle but importance difference between an ensemble movie designed around an ensemble and a movie literally called Superman. If half a dozen supporting characters and plot threads are constantly competing with Superman for focus, obviously people are gonna notice it more.

ilgnd

2w

Without whatting who now??

shaleirose

2w

Oppenheimer has ten million characters and nobody complains that that movie is overstuffed

green man

2w

Again, every single character you listed is there to serve Superman’s story. There are no side plots or side stories. Heck, every single scene is ABOUT Superman. He’s the topic of discussion in every scene.

Primate

2w

Oppenheimer has a ridiculous cast, but most of them orbit the same central subject: Oppenheimer, the bomb, and the consequences of what he did. They’re not each bringing their own mythology, powers, villains, side missions and worldbuilding concepts with them.

green man

2w

I’m not buying what you’re selling.

Switch out Oppenheimer for Superman in your post and it’s the same exact s***.

Primate

2w

Not really. Oppenheimer has more characters, but most have pretty simple functions inside one central story. Superman is introducing whole heroes, powers, lore, villains, pocket universes, wars, reveals etc. That’s way more narrative load, especially in a much shorter movie.

Primate

2w

Oppenheimer has a ridiculous cast, but most of them orbit the same central subject: Oppenheimer, the bomb, and the consequences of what he did. They’re not each bringing their own mythology, powers, villains, side missions and worldbuilding concepts with them.

shaleirose

1w

It sounds like you just have an issue with the nature of comic book media then. Superman is not the only super-powered being in his world, there’s a vast array of characters and concepts.

In the film, all of the characters exist to further the central narrative that Superman is experiencing. None of them have any side stories or subplots. It seems like you expected explanations for all of the powers and science-fiction ideas solely because of their inclusion

Oblivion X

2w

Is it ? The function of the justice gang was really simple hence their screentime in the movie, there's not much associated with them other than they're a group of heros for hire who were inspired by superman

All the other things are just story elements that lead its way back to the central conflict of lex plan to take down superman.

green man

2w

Again, every single character you listed is there to serve Superman’s story. There are no side plots or side stories. Heck, every single scene is ABOUT Superman. He’s the topic of discussion in every scene.

Primate

1w

That’s kind of my point though. Comic books and comic book movies are two different mediums. What works across issues, arcs and years of comics doesn’t automatically translate cleanly into a 2-hour movie.

I’m not saying Superman’s world should be small or that every sci-fi concept needs an explanation. I’m saying a movie can still feel overloaded even if every character technically serves the main plot. The medium matters, and there’s only so much stuff you can introduce and service before the pacing starts to feel cramped.

"It all ties into Superman’s story” doesn’t automatically mean it can’t feel overstuffed. You can have a bunch of relevant characters, concepts and plot mechanics all serving the same narrative and still cram so much into two hours that none of it gets much room to breathe.

That’s what I’m getting at with Superman. It’s not the existence of the Justice Gang, pocket universe, Engineer, Ultraman, Metamorpho, Daily Planet etc. It’s the sheer density and pace at which the movie keeps introducing and servicing all of it... especially at its current runtime.

HaroldsChicken

1w

Him being the topic of every single scene kind of is one of my issues. Because the characters dont have their own lives or existences outside of Superman to a degree that is too much.

Primate

1w

That’s the distinction I’m making though. Having a simple function in the plot isn’t the same thing as adding little narrative load.

The Justice Gang’s function is simple, sure, but you’re still introducing three different heroes, personalities and power sets. Same with Ultraman, the Engineer, Metamorpho, the pocket universe, Boravia, the Kryptonian message etc.

They can all lead back to Lex’s plan and the movie can still feel crowded. "It all connects" can speak to the movie's coherence, but not its denisty.

Oppenheimer has more characters, but most of them exist within the same grounded framework and don’t each bring a bunch of new lore, powers or concepts with them. Also its a much longer movie than Superman was so that density can be better spread out.

Feels like both you and @shaleirose are arguing a bit past my core point - coherence and density aren’t the same thing. A movie can have one central conflict and still overload it with too many characters, concepts, reveals and mechanics.

Primate

1w

That’s the distinction I’m making though. Having a simple function in the plot isn’t the same thing as adding little narrative load.

The Justice Gang’s function is simple, sure, but you’re still introducing three different heroes, personalities and power sets. Same with Ultraman, the Engineer, Metamorpho, the pocket universe, Boravia, the Kryptonian message etc.

They can all lead back to Lex’s plan and the movie can still feel crowded. "It all connects" can speak to the movie's coherence, but not its denisty.

Oppenheimer has more characters, but most of them exist within the same grounded framework and don’t each bring a bunch of new lore, powers or concepts with them. Also its a much longer movie than Superman was so that density can be better spread out.

Feels like both you and @shaleirose are arguing a bit past my core point - coherence and density aren’t the same thing. A movie can have one central conflict and still overload it with too many characters, concepts, reveals and mechanics.

shaleirose

1w

Oppenheimer has more characters, but most of them exist within the same grounded framework and don’t each bring a bunch of new lore, powers or concepts with them. Also its a much longer movie than Superman was so that density can be better spread out.
Feels like both you and @shaleirose are arguing a bit past my core point - coherence and density aren’t the same thing. A movie can have one central conflict and still overload it with too many characters, concepts, reveals and mechanics.

Again, it just seems like you have a fundamental disagreement with the nature of comic book stories.

Obviously the side characters in Oppenheimer don't have extra lore or powers or concepts because it's a biopic about a real-life story.

Expecting the same out of a fictional comic-book universe story is nonsensical because what you're asking for is antithetical to the concept of what a comic-book universe is. This is a world where superheroes and unrealistic science-fiction technology and aliens and pocket dimensions exist. It's not "too dense", it's just telling a story within this universe.

Oblivion X

1w

I mean I get the idea of a movie coherence and density being separate. And that a movie can be overloaded with plot elements that makes it feel crowded which is why I originally said thats a more reasonable critique

But the thing is your point is making it seem as the mere inclusion of these characters is what strongly makes it crowded, and i just dont see it.

Primate

1w

I think if you read my argument for the last few posts thats not what I'm saying at all.

I’m not saying “Justice Gang exists therefore movie crowded.”

It’s the cumulative load. Justice Gang, Engineer, Ultraman, Metamorpho, pocket universe, Boravia, Kryptonian message, Daily Planet stuff etc all need some level of setup, explanation, screen time or payoff. Any one of those is fine. Stack enough of them into one pretty short movie and it starts feeling cramped.

So the issue isn’t inclusion, it’s how much narrative bandwidth all those inclusions collectively eat up!

If you still don't understand my point, I don't see the value in continuing this back and forth.

Primate

1w

But that still doesn’t address what I’m saying! I’m not arguing that superheroes, aliens, pocket dimensions etc shouldn’t exist in Superman’s world lol. Obviously they should.

The question is how much of that stuff you choose to introduce and actively service in one 2-hour movie. A fictional universe can be infinitely huge without every movie having to feel like it’s showing you the whole toybox at once.

Saying “that’s just the nature of comic books” also kind of ignores that comics and movies are different mediums. Comics can spread characters, lore and concepts across dozens of issues. A movie has to make choices about what gets foregrounded in a limited runtime.

So no my issue isn’t that Superman’s world is fantastical. My issue is that this particular movie crams a lot of that world into one story, and for me it hurts the pacing and breathing room.