PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I wish there was better middle ground between being a cultist for Mao/Stalin/Gonzalo and being a complete revisionist. Western communists on the Internet are like a mental asylum

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I wish there was better middle ground between being a cultist for Mao/Stalin/Gonzalo and being a complete revisionist. Western communists on the Internet are like a mental asylum

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I wish there was better middle ground between being a cultist for Mao/Stalin/Gonzalo and being a complete revisionist. Western communists on the Internet are like a mental asylum

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I wish there was better middle ground between being a cultist for Mao/Stalin/Gonzalo and being a complete revisionist. Western communists on the Internet are like a mental asylum

xxxkiraxxx

4mo

Vanguardism vs. Proletarian Revolution

Orthodox Marxists argue that Lenin’s idea of a “vanguard party” (a small, centralized party of professional revolutionaries leading the working class) departs from Marx’s belief that the working class must self-emancipate through mass movements. Marx believed that socialism could only emerge from a majority working-class revolution, rather than being guided by an elite minority.

Marx’s View: Revolution comes from the working class itself as they gain class consciousness.

Lenin’s View: A vanguard party is needed to guide and educate the proletariat to carry out the revolution, as he believed the working class alone would not develop a sufficient level of revolutionary consciousness without leadership

xxxkiraxxx

4mo

· edited

A few months ago I saw a tweet of an Orthodox Marxist claiming that a ML‘s "shortcut approach to communism" can be criticized - particalary if you try to apply it to countries who weren‘t in Russias position (at that time) or countries where the conditions for socialism haven‘t naturally matured yet in general. The transition from capitalism to communism is a natural progress, it‘s evolution and shouldn‘t be forced through vanguard. The majority of people (the working class) will reach class consciousness once capitalism fully crumbles society (which will happen) when there‘s no other way out. The transition from capitalism to socialism isn’t something that can simply be “willed” into existence by a small group, even if they are well-organized and ideologically committed. The transition is evolutionary, not revolutionary in a forced sense, and is based on the maturation of specific economic and social conditions.

I probably f***ed up how they formulated it but what do y‘all think of this? that was one of multiple arguments

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I wish there was better middle ground between being a cultist for Mao/Stalin/Gonzalo and being a complete revisionist. Western communists on the Internet are like a mental asylum

Snowboy

4mo

this isnt worth thinking about or engaging with.

xxxkiraxxx

4mo

A few months ago I saw a tweet of an Orthodox Marxist claiming that a ML‘s "shortcut approach to communism" can be criticized - particalary if you try to apply it to countries who weren‘t in Russias position (at that time) or countries where the conditions for socialism haven‘t naturally matured yet in general. The transition from capitalism to communism is a natural progress, it‘s evolution and shouldn‘t be forced through vanguard. The majority of people (the working class) will reach class consciousness once capitalism fully crumbles society (which will happen) when there‘s no other way out. The transition from capitalism to socialism isn’t something that can simply be “willed” into existence by a small group, even if they are well-organized and ideologically committed. The transition is evolutionary, not revolutionary in a forced sense, and is based on the maturation of specific economic and social conditions.

I probably f***ed up how they formulated it but what do y‘all think of this? that was one of multiple arguments

afterimage

4mo

sounds idealistic and inherently a stepping stone to reformism to tell the proletariat to just “wait for the natural evolution of things” when the vanguard was never meant to “force thru” revolution but to take advantage of moments of crisis within the ruling class and lead those willing sections of the working class to overthrow the old mode of production

To think that the vanguard “forces” thru anything seems like a left critique of Leninism from those who think the Soviets were too authoritarian it sounds like.

But also we can look at successful ML revolutions such as China, Cuba, Vietnam . They had some form of a vanguard party that enjoyed support or at the very least weren’t openly hostile to a socialist government

Even in non-socialist revolutions only a small subset of the population actively participated in overthrowing the old system

xxxkiraxxx

4mo

Thx for actually answering.

Orthodox Marxism is in essence just Kautskyism am I right?

I think that way of thinking can lead to passivness. I think that’s not what they’re really going for cause they are generally not against operating within an socialist organization, labour unions & spreading the message and so on but once a boundary is pushed for them they will just be on the side of reformism ig

afterimage

4mo

No but like Leninism, Maoism or Trotskyism where the names itself are all diverging tendencies, theoretical contributions or interpretations of orthodox Marx- the isms are just whatever the followers choose to attach to it.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/

Lenin writes a great deal about him so that is the best place to see his own critique of Kautsky

xxxkiraxxx

4mo

Vanguardism vs. Proletarian Revolution

Orthodox Marxists argue that Lenin’s idea of a “vanguard party” (a small, centralized party of professional revolutionaries leading the working class) departs from Marx’s belief that the working class must self-emancipate through mass movements. Marx believed that socialism could only emerge from a majority working-class revolution, rather than being guided by an elite minority.

Marx’s View: Revolution comes from the working class itself as they gain class consciousness.

Lenin’s View: A vanguard party is needed to guide and educate the proletariat to carry out the revolution, as he believed the working class alone would not develop a sufficient level of revolutionary consciousness without leadership

WRU

4mo

Waaaah western commie bad because they like mao and stalin, what is this, 1971

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I'm criticizing idolatry which often is a sign of a lack of material understanding or will to go beyond fetishization of aesthetics

WRU

4mo

If there are no isolated phenomena in the world, if all phenomena are interconnected and interdependent, then it is clear that every social system and every social movement in history must be evaluated not from the standpoint of "eternal justice" or some other preconceived idea, as is not infrequently done by historians, but from the standpoint of the conditions which gave rise to that system or that social movement and with which they are connected.

The slave system would be senseless, stupid and unnatural under modern conditions. But under the conditions of a disintegrating primitive communal system, the slave system is a quite understandable and natural phenomenon, since it represents an advance on the primitive communal system.

Joe was Steele cold with it

PFLP optimisticman

4mo

I'm criticizing idolatry which often is a sign of a lack of material understanding or will to go beyond fetishization of aesthetics

www quakerboy us

4mo

gotten far enough to understand the basis for this book is just essentially an affirmation of marx’s position and theory of one’s social experience and outcome is a direct result of their economic position because in the capitalist mode of production the proletariat has to work to live because the alternative would be homelessness/starving which not being subjected to those things is the basis of being able to pursue other ventures you might be interested in to complete a life of fulfillment, my first book from eagleton and will def be going deeper into his catalog after this!