Synopsis

5y

One of the most striking things to me is that so many people seem to lack the ability or the want to imagine that there is another way of organizing society than what we already have. I truly have no idea why this is, but I suspect it might be due to the strength of capitalist propaganda. Not only does it breed selfishness, meaningless material pursuits, but it allows people to think that they are somehow living outside of a system, and that the individual is the greatest unit in society. Capitalism's (and really liberalism's) focus on the individual has brainwashed society to a point where people will believe, despite all evidence to the contrary, that through hard work, a good idea or two, and simply staying on the grind that they will get rich and reach the upper strata of society, that they alone have the formula for beating the odds and overcoming all the barriers put in their way, because capitalists have allowed them to believe they have a great degree of freedom.

Any attempts to come up with an alternative to this system (namely a socialist society) are met with extreme vitriol most of the time. Not only can people not imagine that alternative, but they think so lowly of their fellow humans that they believe such a system would never work because of some b******ized idea they have of human nature. To them, the only viable system is one that pits us in direct competition with members of the same social class, working away for starvation wages for wealthy elites who allow us to maintain an illusion of freedom. Even the most shallow of research would allow one to get a good grasp of all the man made atrocities going on as a direct result of capitalism, yet most people still refuse to believe there is an alternative or any systemic injustices at work.

So my question is; Why are the people who at least seem to be aware of these injustices so willing to defend them in the name of capitalism, and why are people so incapable of imagining a better alternative?

Synopsis

5y

no, but ive iterated and explained many times that its something like the abolition of wage labor and removal of the profit motive and moving towards a system based on mutual cooperation and need among the people.

coltrup

5y

right and this is sort of your problem.

how do we abolish wage labour and ensure that everything from essential services like garbage collecting to high-difficulty innovation in pharmaceuticals still gets done, how do we decide who does what and for how long, what does decision-making look like (if you to have to, say, decide what d*** to invest money in) etc.

im not asking you to answer any of that and im fully aware that answers already exist/have been written about it.

the point im making is "abolition of wage labour and the removal of the profit motive" is the definition of vague idealism. throw that out to KTT and its meaningless.

linking an article answering some of these tough questions and providing some clarity is more effective than assuming everyone is already on the same frequency as you.

Prosecco Papi

5y

Synop- I disagreed with you somewhat in reparations thread- and I think I get why. The mentality difference between us is that I think the big changes needed to better society will realistically happen incrementally and not all at once. I agree with all your points, I just think it can’t happen overnight- it’ll take a century. I think voting for small changes isn’t compromising, but slowly working towards the big changes needed.

plants

5y

a century

Climate change has entered the chat

mgfverse

5y

zizek's on KTT?

Prosecco Papi

5y

Synop- I disagreed with you somewhat in reparations thread- and I think I get why. The mentality difference between us is that I think the big changes needed to better society will realistically happen incrementally and not all at once. I agree with all your points, I just think it can’t happen overnight- it’ll take a century. I think voting for small changes isn’t compromising, but slowly working towards the big changes needed.

Prosecco Papi

5y

We all gonna f***in die u rite
I work in scientific research and I f***ing forgot functional society has a century max left lmao

arrrg

5y

people get comfortable and complacent. why change if you feel that way? people also take pride in their work, so suggesting that things should be different can be an insult

as the climate crisis gets worse the opportunity for greater change will grow, so there's that. i'm not too inspired by what some people view as "action" now tho

Synopsis

5y

you can't just sit there and say humans are inherently greedy. people look out for their own interests because that's what we're conditioned to do, but what they don't make us aware of is that the common interest and advancement of people is what is best for all of us.

Synopsis

5y

we got obamacare how long ago? we're nowhere closer to universal healthcare.

Prosecco Papi

5y

we’d be closer if werent for the DNC

Synopsis

5y

it depends tho. its not like i have a master list of every job/decision that would have to ever be made by society or that such answers even exist in books.

the simple answer is, innovation isn't driven by capitalism or profit, and that maybe some s*** like garbage collecting can be automated away, but even then i simply don't think communities are going to allow themselves to be overrun by garbage. people are smart enough to figure things out.

yungcartier

5y

Humans are naturally selfish, it's been like that since the beginning of time. Toddlers cry when their parents don't give them what they want, hence not fulfilling their self-interest.

An ideal world with people working together for the purpose of advancing society sounds great but again their will be people that will want more and will do it for their own gain.

CLB KarlPilkington

5y

Why do y’all have to be so uppity and pompous about this s***, up to the point of delusion.

You’re taking about capitalism brainwashing society yet want to build a world that removes all individuality lmao. You want to create a society where it is “physically impossible” for a human to commit a crime, which implies we know how every individual acts. That’s dystopian and is actual brainwashing.

I know this isn’t the discussion of your thread (but isn’t it something that all of your threads are easily picked apart and derailed). But the way you frame your arguments is so off-putting Jesus.

yungcartier

5y

Humans are naturally selfish, it's been like that since the beginning of time. Toddlers cry when their parents don't give them what they want, hence not fulfilling their self-interest.

An ideal world with people working together for the purpose of advancing society sounds great but again their will be people that will want more and will do it for their own gain.

CLB KarlPilkington

5y

Why do y’all have to be so uppity and pompous about this s***, up to the point of delusion.

You’re taking about capitalism brainwashing society yet want to build a world that removes all individuality lmao. You want to create a society where it is “physically impossible” for a human to commit a crime, which implies we know how every individual acts. That’s dystopian and is actual brainwashing.

I know this isn’t the discussion of your thread (but isn’t it something that all of your threads are easily picked apart and derailed). But the way you frame your arguments is so off-putting Jesus.

Synopsis

5y

there are also toddlers who enjoy sharing, so what is your point?

again, there is a very clear argument to be made that whats best for the people is actually also good for the individual.

coltrup

5y

right and this is sort of your problem.

how do we abolish wage labour and ensure that everything from essential services like garbage collecting to high-difficulty innovation in pharmaceuticals still gets done, how do we decide who does what and for how long, what does decision-making look like (if you to have to, say, decide what d*** to invest money in) etc.

im not asking you to answer any of that and im fully aware that answers already exist/have been written about it.

the point im making is "abolition of wage labour and the removal of the profit motive" is the definition of vague idealism. throw that out to KTT and its meaningless.

linking an article answering some of these tough questions and providing some clarity is more effective than assuming everyone is already on the same frequency as you.

coltrup

5y

i agree that the minutia of any system isn't really written about anywhere. but there are accessible works explaining how these systems would operate on a MACRO level, and it would probably benefit you to pull from those or at least point people towards them.

also the stuff about innovation, garbage collecting etc was just random examples. my point is that there are real questions of implementation that need answering.