OPOct 29, 2023·edited·1 reply
slimreapercantrapsure, there's a world outside me and you that we share. however, this is already self-apparent and isn't the truth that is chased. also, it's important to remember how we interact with this shared world. Kant calls these "orders of observation". directly seeing and experiencing the world would be a first-order observation, but we don't do this. we perceive the world through our senses and through our minds, and this is called a second-order observation. the second order observation is never a 100% match for the thing-in-itself. and no two second order observations of the same thing are perfect matches either!
Need i reiterate:
" The truth is unknowable in its entirety, we can both agree on that. But that doesn't make it undesirable or unworthy of our attention and pursuit."
I made the point multiple times that our human minds are not capable of knowing everything or directly perceiving the entire truth, more than anything it is a neverending quest for it. But without it we would have no scientific discoveries.
It is precisely this thirst for a truth that is believed to exist "out there" that we need more of. We don't need more people that sit on a couch all day and claim they have feelings and that their personal convictions are true. We have too much of that, is my exact point. We are missing a key formula in the way we prioritise our gathering of information
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
I'm saying if you take out the claim to truth in your arguments, then nothing you say holds any objective meaning, and you can no longer convince anyone of anything. You could make them FEEL something, but that wouldn't convince them that it is truth.
Like you said, if you are CONVINCED Trump has never been a legimitate president then you sure as hell can argue that point.
But if you were to just abandon the idea of truth in your arguments, then all people would do is try to feel your side of delusion to experience it for themselves. They wouldn't hold it to any objective light in their heads but they would definitely be able to feel the disillusioned feelings.Actually now that i think of it, this is very much how movies operate. Movies do have some shadow of truth in them, otherwise they would be unrelatable. But they also inject a whole lot of fiction and delusion. Which does transfer feelings, but it doesn't convince people that the movie happened in real life.
it's weird to me that u just assume people would feel like they're getting the wool pulled over their eyes and would naturally feel disillusioned after a while. We live life feeling-first. people's worldviews are based on feelings, then expanded upon and justified with logic after the fact. to convey feeling is to speak to them on a deeper level, not a shallower one. it's why art hits deeper than any a***ytic philosophy essay
- OPOct 29, 2023
lil ufoYou also speak facts but I'm pretty sure many people here wouldn't read all that so I just wanted to contribute to the message somehow.
I do agree with what you wrote, but it sounds a bit too generalized, like there are people in this world that can value their reality and existence, with dreams of a better world.
I think technology and academia is what contributed the most to this point, as organizations started to get in charge of knowledge and information, they also built a certain influence in society and founded their own pillars of authority and authenticity, leading to a world where new truths and approaches are not welcome, because they would undermine these pillars of such organizations.
Technology from its side, provided everyone with an enormous flow of information, and with our attention span lowering, all information is turning shallow, because it gets over-simplified in order to adjust to our 'needs'.
Organizations, in charge of knowledge and information, settled down a standardized version of truth to this reality, with the objective of gatekeeping and limiting our potential as human beings.
Yes i also believe this is all happening, but.
My personal conviction is that, it happens the other way around.
Precisely because somewhere down the previous century we abandoned the quest for truth in such a stark way, that we lost the ability to shield and protect ourselves against the commoditzation of information and knowledge.
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye· edited
Need i reiterate:
" The truth is unknowable in its entirety, we can both agree on that. But that doesn't make it undesirable or unworthy of our attention and pursuit."
I made the point multiple times that our human minds are not capable of knowing everything or directly perceiving the entire truth, more than anything it is a neverending quest for it. But without it we would have no scientific discoveries.
It is precisely this thirst for a truth that is believed to exist "out there" that we need more of. We don't need more people that sit on a couch all day and claim they have feelings and that their personal convictions are true. We have too much of that, is my exact point. We are missing a key formula in the way we prioritise our gathering of information
but whyyyy like why should more ppl be striving for something they'll never reach. yk that's mighty dangerous!
- OPOct 29, 2023slimreapercantrap
it's weird to me that u just assume people would feel like they're getting the wool pulled over their eyes and would naturally feel disillusioned after a while. We live life feeling-first. people's worldviews are based on feelings, then expanded upon and justified with logic after the fact. to convey feeling is to speak to them on a deeper level, not a shallower one. it's why art hits deeper than any a***ytic philosophy essay
I didn't write the sentence properly and see you've taken it to mean somethiing else.
I meant: if you believe Trump to be an illegitimate president WHILE he is a president and you would not rely on a claim to truth to argue your point. Then all people could do is imagine in their heads those feelings of disillusionment that he became an illegitimate president in this scenario and sympathize for you.
I'm not saying people are naturally disillusioned, i used that term specifically to describe a person reacting to an illegitimate president.
Ofcourse FEELINGS are very very important and serve a function, even in our quest for truth, i agree.
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
but whyyyy like why should more ppl be striving for something they'll never reach. yk that's mighty dangerous!
Because it exsists is my point!
Nihilism has us convinced otherwise.
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
Because it exsists is my point!
Nihilism has us convinced otherwise.
ok, it exists. still, why must we chase it if we can't catch it.
like in taoism (where most of my points come from) the universal way of things is the capital-t Tao, but to try to know it consciously and try to speak it into existence is foolish, and generally not encouraged
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
ok, it exists. still, why must we chase it if we can't catch it.
like in taoism (where most of my points come from) the universal way of things is the capital-t Tao, but to try to know it consciously and try to speak it into existence is foolish, and generally not encouraged
Because by acknowledging it exists, you now become open to suggestion. If the truth is so vast that it encompasses every little detail, history, future event, possibility, law of nature, existence and meaning there is, then it naturally becomes too big for one human mind to comprehend.
But it does mean you can approach the world with a mindset able to mine this truth for objective reality and meaning. You are empowered to find meaning in every element of life, no matter how small or big an event or person or idea. They all become susceptible to the idea that the truth is something unmoveably permanent and valid. Some use it as a source to solve personal problems, some use it to discover a new branch of science, some may use it for art. But it becomes an endless source for human growth. We are no longer shouldering the weight of knowledge on ourselves but leave it to rest in a fabric of its own. Without us needing to upkeep it.
If you are closed off to the idea of truth you will never pursue it.
- Oct 29, 2023·2 repliesbe2ye
Because by acknowledging it exists, you now become open to suggestion. If the truth is so vast that it encompasses every little detail, history, future event, possibility, law of nature, existence and meaning there is, then it naturally becomes too big for one human mind to comprehend.
But it does mean you can approach the world with a mindset able to mine this truth for objective reality and meaning. You are empowered to find meaning in every element of life, no matter how small or big an event or person or idea. They all become susceptible to the idea that the truth is something unmoveably permanent and valid. Some use it as a source to solve personal problems, some use it to discover a new branch of science, some may use it for art. But it becomes an endless source for human growth. We are no longer shouldering the weight of knowledge on ourselves but leave it to rest in a fabric of its own. Without us needing to upkeep it.
If you are closed off to the idea of truth you will never pursue it.
but what makes pursuing it so good?
i mean I try to live life going along with the Tao, but I'd never pretend to know it or try to chase it
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
but what makes pursuing it so good?
i mean I try to live life going along with the Tao, but I'd never pretend to know it or try to chase it
You can't pretend to know the truth, as we are naturally not capable of knowing it in its entirety ever.
But you are very capable of pursuing, however small, a bit of it. And as much as you want basically... pursuing doesn't need to mean actually achieving it. Important distinction to be made here i think.
What makes it good or virtuous to pursue the truth?
Because to pursue the truth would naturally mean you are trying to uncover the truth from its hidden state. When you unhide the truth, the natural consequence of it would be that the lies, fiction or falsehood surrounding that topic would naturally vanish, thus clearing up a bit of our knowledge with objective truth.
That can then be expounded upon and used by future generations, since that is the power of truth. It doesn't change no matter what age or time you live in.
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
but what makes pursuing it so good?
i mean I try to live life going along with the Tao, but I'd never pretend to know it or try to chase it
But most importantly i think, is that you can derive meaning from it that you can apply in your life.
How to live your life becomes imbued with meaning, something which nihilism has derived us of pretty much.
To not have meaning in anything you do is really an emotional and mental poverty that i can't explain to you unless you uncover something for the first time and experience that bliss and euphoria yourself. And its natural waves of impact even years later.
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
But most importantly i think, is that you can derive meaning from it that you can apply in your life.
How to live your life becomes imbued with meaning, something which nihilism has derived us of pretty much.
To not have meaning in anything you do is really an emotional and mental poverty that i can't explain to you unless you uncover something for the first time and experience that bliss and euphoria yourself. And its natural waves of impact even years later.
but u don't need to be fruitlessly chasing truth to find meaning!
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
but u don't need to be fruitlessly chasing truth to find meaning!
Why would a pursuit of truth need to be fruitless?
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
You can't pretend to know the truth, as we are naturally not capable of knowing it in its entirety ever.
But you are very capable of pursuing, however small, a bit of it. And as much as you want basically... pursuing doesn't need to mean actually achieving it. Important distinction to be made here i think.
What makes it good or virtuous to pursue the truth?
Because to pursue the truth would naturally mean you are trying to uncover the truth from its hidden state. When you unhide the truth, the natural consequence of it would be that the lies, fiction or falsehood surrounding that topic would naturally vanish, thus clearing up a bit of our knowledge with objective truth.
That can then be expounded upon and used by future generations, since that is the power of truth. It doesn't change no matter what age or time you live in.
im ngl u have to consider this possibility as well.
someone chases truth, and feels they're getting closer. they clear the "lies, fiction and falsehood", and stand on what they think they've found. BUT the whole time, it's just their personal feeling abt this s*** and instead of becoming more aware of their world, they instead buy into delusion and close themselves off.
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
Why would a pursuit of truth need to be fruitless?
we've both said you can't actually reach that capital-t Truth!
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
im ngl u have to consider this possibility as well.
someone chases truth, and feels they're getting closer. they clear the "lies, fiction and falsehood", and stand on what they think they've found. BUT the whole time, it's just their personal feeling abt this s*** and instead of becoming more aware of their world, they instead buy into delusion and close themselves off.
Yes, very important possibility.
But that's why we all need to pursue truth ourselves, because naturally it follows that you can't simply be convinced of something simply because someone said so. The truth allows you to test and challenge anyone making a claim. You can verify it for yourself, and even if it becomes too technical you would not need to be convinced of something that is not evidently true to you.
That's why personal beliefs are not the same as objective truth.
- Oct 29, 2023
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
we've both said you can't actually reach that capital-t Truth!
You can reach it, but not its ENTIRETY
You can know a little about a certain field of knowledge and hold truth and still not know EVERY field of knowledge.
That doesn't make it any less fruitful to pursue that branch of knowledge.
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
Yes, very important possibility.
But that's why we all need to pursue truth ourselves, because naturally it follows that you can't simply be convinced of something simply because someone said so. The truth allows you to test and challenge anyone making a claim. You can verify it for yourself, and even if it becomes too technical you would not need to be convinced of something that is not evidently true to you.
That's why personal beliefs are not the same as objective truth.
it's become clear to me I won't change ur mind on this.
I just hope i accomplished my original goal of defending those who don't blindly commit themselves to duality
- Oct 29, 2023·1 replybe2ye
You can reach it, but not its ENTIRETY
You can know a little about a certain field of knowledge and hold truth and still not know EVERY field of knowledge.
That doesn't make it any less fruitful to pursue that branch of knowledge.
i simply disagree
or i guess not disagree, i'm simply not convinced
- OPOct 29, 2023·1 replyslimreapercantrap
it's become clear to me I won't change ur mind on this.
I just hope i accomplished my original goal of defending those who don't blindly commit themselves to duality
You shoulda just said you follow an eastern school of thought and i woulda agreed immediately
Dualism is mainly a western construct and thinking flaw.
Oct 29, 2023
- OPOct 29, 2023slimreapercantrap
i simply disagree
or i guess not disagree, i'm simply not convinced
And i completely respect it.
- OPOct 29, 2023be2ye
You shoulda just said you follow an eastern school of thought and i woulda agreed immediately
Dualism is mainly a western construct and thinking flaw.
I believe we can thank Aristotle for that
Oct 29, 2023what a sad life to live