Synopsis

5y

I'll assume you're meaning lynchings as any racially motivated crime.

First, you have to restructure the value system of society. And you talk about "how long will this take?" I dont know but I do know there has been stories of kkk members renouncing their views because a black man befriended them. If we don't live in a society that normalizes white supremacy at every turn then who knows what results we might see. My system is better because it eliminates the institutions that do that.

Moon

5y

fam come on you can't ask people to base their arguments in research and theory and then link 'autostraddle.com' to back your incredibly utopian (to put it nicely) arguments?

like how do we possibly construct "communities who have resourced themselves both materially and psychologically and are well equipped to care for each other and themselves, such that what police purport to offer isn’t needed" under existing class hierarchies?

Synopsis

5y

Do you think I believe ppl aren't influenced by systemic factors

Enpax

5y

Yeah, if poorer communities got the funding they needed, crime would go down significantly. But accounting for every variable like that, there are still some people that enjoy victimizing others. So why not give the poorer communities the funding they need, while reforming the police force to be more in tune with the communities they serve, rather than relying on people to defend themselves from strangers

Pusha P

5y

I think you know people are influenced by money, regardless of their systemic conditioning.

Just look at places around the world where police are non-existent, they're damn near free for alls run by criminal organizations that collude with politicians. Granted, the US isn't a 3rd world country with a d*** cartel or warlord issue.

Pusha P

5y

How do you expect people to police themselves when they've allowed this government to run the way it has?

Bribing yourself out of crimes would be at an all time high.

You must have a lot of faith in your fellow man if you trust us to police ourselves. I bet you don't even trust people to vote for the right candidate. Why would you rely on them to police a community?

Pusha P

5y

Yup. Now imagine that with the local 'community watch' aka the new non-police. Some smart ass will surely find a way to loophole and abuse it, just like what happens now in the gov't.

Synopsis

5y

I linked it because it has links to, you know, actual works done on the topic. I'm not telling him to read autostraddle, I'm telling him to read the materials linked within the article

CarbideAndCarbon

5y

I like how you completely sidestepped how the linked article suggests that the alternative to having a police force is to remake society wholesale so that crime no longer exists.

CarbideAndCarbon

5y

I like how you completely sidestepped how the linked article suggests that the alternative to having a police force is to remake society wholesale so that crime no longer exists.

Synopsis

5y

I linked it because it has links to, you know, actual works done on the topic. I'm not telling him to read autostraddle, I'm telling him to read the materials linked within the article

Synopsis

5y

Uh no. I didn't sidestep it I explicitly said I'm linking the article because of the links that are contained within which is overall a pretty good curation of literature on the topic.

Moon

5y

every article linked is either making a blatantly obvious point (prisons and the culture of criminalization in the u.s. are bad) or again not rooted in reality.

your fundamental response to the thread was that the police should be abolished and replaced with "mental health and trauma experts and things of that nature"

1. why is the state going to give up its monopoly on violence to allow for this?

2. why are corporations and institutions that have a vested interest in arming/profiting off police activity going to allow for this?

3. why can we not assume that the abolition of the police will simply result in the marketization of law enforcement through the employment of private actors (thereby further immunizing law enforcement from the law) by the wealthy, thereby accentuating existing class/race-based disparities?

hollow platitude-esque ideas such as "social workers and activists must work with communities to find solutions for patriarchal, homophobic, and mental health–based violence" are incredibly unimaginative and don't add anything meaningful to the contribution imo like yes no s*** but that doesn't happen in a vacuum insulated from political and economic realities

The Man

5y

The word reform is not a good one. Police have been “reforming” for decades, the fact is cuz of police unions nothing changes. The only way things will change is if there is radical change

Moon

5y

every article linked is either making a blatantly obvious point (prisons and the culture of criminalization in the u.s. are bad) or again not rooted in reality.

your fundamental response to the thread was that the police should be abolished and replaced with "mental health and trauma experts and things of that nature"

1. why is the state going to give up its monopoly on violence to allow for this?

2. why are corporations and institutions that have a vested interest in arming/profiting off police activity going to allow for this?

3. why can we not assume that the abolition of the police will simply result in the marketization of law enforcement through the employment of private actors (thereby further immunizing law enforcement from the law) by the wealthy, thereby accentuating existing class/race-based disparities?

hollow platitude-esque ideas such as "social workers and activists must work with communities to find solutions for patriarchal, homophobic, and mental health–based violence" are incredibly unimaginative and don't add anything meaningful to the contribution imo like yes no s*** but that doesn't happen in a vacuum insulated from political and economic realities

Synopsis

5y

List these countries

Enpax

5y

By “reform” I mean actual change. If that means disarming them then so be it, but whether you call it police or not, I think most people would agree that there should be a specific group of people who’s function should be to apprehend criminals

Pusha P

5y

Parts of Central America/South America, especially Mexico (not entire countries, but maybe smaller states within them) pretty much operate with little to no police presence.

Read into the Mexican states of Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon, Guerrero, Jalisco and you'll find the grim reality of living in a place with no organized police. Especially since gun laws are way stricter than they are here.

I know places like Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, and some other African countries have the same kind of thing going on.

I literally just saw a map of the world showcasing where police presence is virtually non-existent on Reddit a few days ago and I'm drawing a blank, but there was more places than I thought.

One thing most have in common is that they're all 3rd world as well.

The Man

5y

I would hope that sometime in the future you gather more optimism and hope for your fellow humans

Synopsis

5y

I never said the state or corporations would willingly do so

Moon

5y

· edited

okay so your suggestion is little more than something someone with little to no political knowledge posts on their instagram story to act woke

again, you cannot ask people to ground their arguments in theory/literature and then literally have no defense for your core argument when pushed on it lol