rvi ⚡Feb 12, 2023no
also just in my opinion i think you need a bigger body of work to be up there with greatest songwriters ever. its hard to compare top tier songwriting between different artists but some of those goats just have an insane amount of songs at that top level like Bob Dylan, etc.
he is still comparatively kinda young though so I don't really like ranking him in terms of "ever". even if it seems hes not really gonna put out that much more music. ill say one of the best songwriters ive heard among his peers for sure
Feb 12, 2023·2 replies
frank 2022but what IS good to you then?
Anything that shows effort. Kendrick when he does his animated voices, Eminem when he's making entire sentences rhyme with each other and exploring weird pockets. I think its more honest, and I understand that that's a personal preference.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate poetry-type "imma let you figure out what I meant" type songs but my preference for that is spaced out C3 leaks to pre-C4 Wayne where you can tell he's not conscious of the fact that that's what he's doing as opposed to Sufjan and Frank where you can tell they went "ooh, im about to get in my mysterious bag, turn up the synths"
It just feels cynical, don't know if that makes any sense.
Feb 12, 2023no tbh. the most interesting part of blonde is him messing with different sounds and all that pitch shifting s*** he did so he could sing from different perspectives and what have you. he’s more interesting production wise than songwriting
Feb 12, 2023Yes
Feb 12, 2023yes and on top of that most of these alt r&b boys wanna be him so bad (including me) but you CANNOT beat the original baby!!
Feb 12, 2023·3 replies
Nortsome of these I gotta check out but i mean, what makes them good?
it's hard for me to pinpoint tbh. there's obv a level of just personal connection with what's being said and how the lyrics are presented next to the actual composition of the music. i don't think music needs to be over-written or lyrically heavy to be "well written"; i love modest mouse for example and songs like Dramamine say enough with a few simple lines next to the long guitar and bass melodies. similarly, some of my fav frank songs are arguably his simplest lyrically (Self Control) or even literally just covers from other people (Moon River).
i think what i appreciate lyrically is when things have a very poetic quality to them, whether that be in a more abstract presentation or in very direct storytelling.
I personally like it a lot when people are writing in their own direction and are carving out a unique writing style that conveys their own type of sincerity rather than something others will necessarily directly understand - i think when things are like this you can enjoy the music w/o necessarily relating to it just because you can sympathize/emphasize with the topics.
Another thing is i'm really just talking about the parallel integration of lyrics and writing into song structure. D'Angelo is one of my favoriter artists OAT but i would never put him on a songwriter list even if he has some profound songs (i.e. Africa, 1000 Deaths).- Nort 💫Feb 12, 2023krishna bound
it's hard for me to pinpoint tbh. there's obv a level of just personal connection with what's being said and how the lyrics are presented next to the actual composition of the music. i don't think music needs to be over-written or lyrically heavy to be "well written"; i love modest mouse for example and songs like Dramamine say enough with a few simple lines next to the long guitar and bass melodies. similarly, some of my fav frank songs are arguably his simplest lyrically (Self Control) or even literally just covers from other people (Moon River).
i think what i appreciate lyrically is when things have a very poetic quality to them, whether that be in a more abstract presentation or in very direct storytelling.
I personally like it a lot when people are writing in their own direction and are carving out a unique writing style that conveys their own type of sincerity rather than something others will necessarily directly understand - i think when things are like this you can enjoy the music w/o necessarily relating to it just because you can sympathize/emphasize with the topics.
Another thing is i'm really just talking about the parallel integration of lyrics and writing into song structure. D'Angelo is one of my favoriter artists OAT but i would never put him on a songwriter list even if he has some profound songs (i.e. Africa, 1000 Deaths).damn, this was inciteful.
op’s question really got me thinking about what good songwriting is to me and other people. Thanks for taking the time.
- Feb 12, 2023CrippledGod
Anything that shows effort. Kendrick when he does his animated voices, Eminem when he's making entire sentences rhyme with each other and exploring weird pockets. I think its more honest, and I understand that that's a personal preference.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate poetry-type "imma let you figure out what I meant" type songs but my preference for that is spaced out C3 leaks to pre-C4 Wayne where you can tell he's not conscious of the fact that that's what he's doing as opposed to Sufjan and Frank where you can tell they went "ooh, im about to get in my mysterious bag, turn up the synths"
It just feels cynical, don't know if that makes any sense.
I think you’re just distrusting of artists man, let your mind infuse your own meanings and emotions into songs. Don’t feel like you have to be told what to feel every time.
safe 🪩OPFeb 12, 2023·1 replykrishna boundit's hard for me to pinpoint tbh. there's obv a level of just personal connection with what's being said and how the lyrics are presented next to the actual composition of the music. i don't think music needs to be over-written or lyrically heavy to be "well written"; i love modest mouse for example and songs like Dramamine say enough with a few simple lines next to the long guitar and bass melodies. similarly, some of my fav frank songs are arguably his simplest lyrically (Self Control) or even literally just covers from other people (Moon River).
i think what i appreciate lyrically is when things have a very poetic quality to them, whether that be in a more abstract presentation or in very direct storytelling.
I personally like it a lot when people are writing in their own direction and are carving out a unique writing style that conveys their own type of sincerity rather than something others will necessarily directly understand - i think when things are like this you can enjoy the music w/o necessarily relating to it just because you can sympathize/emphasize with the topics.
Another thing is i'm really just talking about the parallel integration of lyrics and writing into song structure. D'Angelo is one of my favoriter artists OAT but i would never put him on a songwriter list even if he has some profound songs (i.e. Africa, 1000 Deaths).its surprising to me that you write this but don't rate Frank so highly from a songwriting perspective cause to me this is exactly what he excels at especially on blonde
- safe 🪩OPFeb 12, 2023
XTALif u think pyramids is incoherent ramble then that’s more on u fam LOL it’s a very clear and concise story he’s talking about with regards to sexuality, class and hundreds of years of history
deadass lmfao of all the frank songs to say that about
- Feb 12, 2023·2 repliessafe
its surprising to me that you write this but don't rate Frank so highly from a songwriting perspective cause to me this is exactly what he excels at especially on blonde
personally i just don't feel that. i love Blonde but i don't think the songwriting, lyrically, is really that much better than its contemporaries. that's not a diss to frank or anything. i think the sound and composition of the album is what makes it special and stand out vs others in the genre.
- safe 🪩OPFeb 12, 2023·1 replykrishna bound
personally i just don't feel that. i love Blonde but i don't think the songwriting, lyrically, is really that much better than its contemporaries. that's not a diss to frank or anything. i think the sound and composition of the album is what makes it special and stand out vs others in the genre.
thats interesting and obviously its subjective
its just funny to me that on the one side you have people talking about how franks lyrics are overly abstract and poetic and therefore lack meaning while youre kinda arguing the exact opposite
who personally do you think of this generation (post like 2005 come up) are the great songwriters? - Feb 12, 2023·1 replykrishna bound
personally i just don't feel that. i love Blonde but i don't think the songwriting, lyrically, is really that much better than its contemporaries. that's not a diss to frank or anything. i think the sound and composition of the album is what makes it special and stand out vs others in the genre.
everything after blonde was influenced by blonde and no one has come close. i do agree that the sound of that record is definitely more influential to its image and his contemporaries rather than the writing.
Feb 12, 2023He wrote Self Control that’s valid for me
- Feb 12, 2023safe
thats interesting and obviously its subjective
its just funny to me that on the one side you have people talking about how franks lyrics are overly abstract and poetic and therefore lack meaning while youre kinda arguing the exact opposite
who personally do you think of this generation (post like 2005 come up) are the great songwriters?i feel like the only people who'd argue Frank's lyrics are too abstract are people who only listen to hip hop because of how straightforward subject matter tends to be in the genre. i've never felt like anything from Frank was even remotely in that direction - not that I think that's a bad thing inherently. I don't think everything needs to be overly artsy and whatever just to be great obviously.
past 2005? hard for me to say. its def a time bias but i feel like most artists i'd categorize were active in the late 90s. its not like im in any way insulting new music i just think its innovative or interesting for reasons other than lyrics. it just so happens coincedentally the late 90s to early 00s produced a heavy scene of music that focused on lyrics , especially in indie and alt rock adjacent scenes. Different temporal music movements produce music that fixates on certain musical aspects; for example, prior to that time period above, new wave & post-punk arent really known for their lyrics as much as their complex melodies and world rhythms. Shoegaze is known for its vocal style and usage of effects like reverb and unique instrumentation. etc. I don't think a lot of modern genres are lyrically focused because they don't really have to be. - Feb 12, 2023·3 repliesXTAL
everything after blonde was influenced by blonde and no one has come close. i do agree that the sound of that record is definitely more influential to its image and his contemporaries rather than the writing.
i'm not really saying its not influential, i'm not downplaying the record or anything. i just mean like if i'm going to compare contemporary r&b albums from a writing standpoint, is Blonde really that much better written that like, CTRL? FKA Twigs LP1? Take Me Apart? Process? Mourn? Ego Death? I think musically and stylistically it differentiates itself significantly and has influence especially in its production and vocals, but i genuinely don't see an argument that it somehow has better lyrics than any of those. I think people just tend to emphasize with the lyrics more subjectively esp. since it's a male r&b singer and many alt/contemporary r&b singers are female
Feb 12, 2023·edited·1 replyCrippledGodWhat Frank (and Sufjan Stevens and writers like them who I like to refer to collectively as Tumblr-core) do is craft a loose, vague narrative and rely on the listeners to fill in the gaps.
Now, add that to evocative instrumentation and you pretty much have your listeners reflecting their complex emotions onto the musical narrative and you can pretend like you said/wrote something deep.
It's not bad, per se, it's just extremely overrated.
If you think I'm joking, write a Frank Ocean type song in your head and see how long it takes you. If I haven't got a headache rn, I'd try my hand at it.
ngl, i concur with you and @krishna_bound (save his point with placing emphasis on the lyrical aspect of songwriting) frank ocean has moments where he’s a fantastic story teller, great wordplay, saying things that everyone can relate to and/has experienced but don’t have the panache to say it—however he definitely has other times where he’s saying a mish mash of words/nothing, that sound pretty on the surface but probably don’t mean anything
as you said, a lot of the meaning to some of his lyrics are projected from his audience to clean up what would be otherwise purple prose, his reputation of being a great songwriter precedes him, so this allows him to get away with nonsense at times
i think he’s great generally though, and i wouldn’t protest too much if someone said he was one of the greatest ever, sans some of the opaque lyrics, he has a brilliant sense of melody, timing, cadence etc. which outshines the aforementioned flaws imo
- Feb 12, 2023frank 2022
who is good then? someone with lyrics that leave nothing up to interpretation?
engaging the listener is again, a sign of good songwriting
Thom Yorke is alive and well
- Feb 12, 2023CrippledGod
Anything that shows effort. Kendrick when he does his animated voices, Eminem when he's making entire sentences rhyme with each other and exploring weird pockets. I think its more honest, and I understand that that's a personal preference.
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate poetry-type "imma let you figure out what I meant" type songs but my preference for that is spaced out C3 leaks to pre-C4 Wayne where you can tell he's not conscious of the fact that that's what he's doing as opposed to Sufjan and Frank where you can tell they went "ooh, im about to get in my mysterious bag, turn up the synths"
It just feels cynical, don't know if that makes any sense.
”as opposed to Sufjan and Frank where you can tell they went "ooh, im about to get in my mysterious bag, turn up the synths"
- Feb 12, 2023·1 replykrishna bound
i'm not really saying its not influential, i'm not downplaying the record or anything. i just mean like if i'm going to compare contemporary r&b albums from a writing standpoint, is Blonde really that much better written that like, CTRL? FKA Twigs LP1? Take Me Apart? Process? Mourn? Ego Death? I think musically and stylistically it differentiates itself significantly and has influence especially in its production and vocals, but i genuinely don't see an argument that it somehow has better lyrics than any of those. I think people just tend to emphasize with the lyrics more subjectively esp. since it's a male r&b singer and many alt/contemporary r&b singers are female
damn you’re losing me
blonde is certainly better written than CTRL or LP1, what makes you draw the parallel in between those albums?
- Feb 12, 2023·1 replysaint dot edumist· edited
ngl, i concur with you and @krishna_bound (save his point with placing emphasis on the lyrical aspect of songwriting) frank ocean has moments where he’s a fantastic story teller, great wordplay, saying things that everyone can relate to and/has experienced but don’t have the panache to say it—however he definitely has other times where he’s saying a mish mash of words/nothing, that sound pretty on the surface but probably don’t mean anything
as you said, a lot of the meaning to some of his lyrics are projected from his audience to clean up what would be otherwise purple prose, his reputation of being a great songwriter precedes him, so this allows him to get away with nonsense at times
i think he’s great generally though, and i wouldn’t protest too much if someone said he was one of the greatest ever, sans some of the opaque lyrics, he has a brilliant sense of melody, timing, cadence etc. which outshines the aforementioned flaws imo
your first paragraph is one of the things where if i wanted to nitpick frank's music i would def agree with. in reality i think it's kind of a meh issue esp. since i'm not like a music critic trying to academically dissect music. to poke at it for fun tho, i think that's one of those things where hip hop has been a negative influence on him, which is obviously one of his main genre influences arguably more than r&b in some respects. there's a really bad habit in hip hop to be scared of empty space in songs or leave gaps lyrically; that leads to situations where lyrics are inserted superfluously that kinda make sense textually but don't actually add anything to the music or concept of the song. Individually I don't think this is a big issue, a lot of my fav rappers do this too (even people i think are generational rap talents like Billy Woods), but w/ frank it adds up over time to be a minor annoyance for me.
- Feb 12, 2023saint dot edumist
damn you’re losing me
blonde is certainly better written than CTRL or LP1, what makes you draw the parallel in between those albums?
they're all highly praised contemporary r&b albums released around the same set of years, that's it really. i think blonde is a better album than both but i don't think it's because of lyrics, i think it's because of composition. which is an aspect of songwriting for sure but there's a reason songwriting is considered distinct from just "musician"
- Feb 12, 2023·1 replykrishna bound
your first paragraph is one of the things where if i wanted to nitpick frank's music i would def agree with. in reality i think it's kind of a meh issue esp. since i'm not like a music critic trying to academically dissect music. to poke at it for fun tho, i think that's one of those things where hip hop has been a negative influence on him, which is obviously one of his main genre influences arguably more than r&b in some respects. there's a really bad habit in hip hop to be scared of empty space in songs or leave gaps lyrically; that leads to situations where lyrics are inserted superfluously that kinda make sense textually but don't actually add anything to the music or concept of the song. Individually I don't think this is a big issue, a lot of my fav rappers do this too (even people i think are generational rap talents like Billy Woods), but w/ frank it adds up over time to be a minor annoyance for me.
that’s actually a pretty great point that you made about hip-hop, it’s definitely something that primarily plagues that particular genre, because i don’t really hear it in rock/pop etc. and it actually makes a lot of sense
the nitpicks are justified regardless if you’re an academic or not, since we are talking all-time status, everything definitely has to be taken into consideration so good points regardless
you be understanding what Billy Woods be rapping about?
he’s one of my favorites just like you, but i’d be lying if i was to say i grasp what he’s getting at most of the time 
Feb 12, 2023krishna boundi'm not really saying its not influential, i'm not downplaying the record or anything. i just mean like if i'm going to compare contemporary r&b albums from a writing standpoint, is Blonde really that much better written that like, CTRL? FKA Twigs LP1? Take Me Apart? Process? Mourn? Ego Death? I think musically and stylistically it differentiates itself significantly and has influence especially in its production and vocals, but i genuinely don't see an argument that it somehow has better lyrics than any of those. I think people just tend to emphasize with the lyrics more subjectively esp. since it's a male r&b singer and many alt/contemporary r&b singers are female
This is now a Process appreciation thread
Feb 12, 2023He's a little overrated as a songwriter imo cus he's mysterious