Vegeta (Anime version) said to Cabba "In my natural state we are evenly matched" when both were in their base forms in the U6 Tournament. This is Vegeta post-God Training as well, so his base form should be far stronger than it was even in the Beerus arc.

When you put the fact that Caulifla and Kale are both stronger than him, the U6 Saiyans are absolutely naturally stronger than the U7 Saiyans.

The U7 Saiyans before Goten, Trunks and Pan had to go through all types of godly training and power hacks to get their power. We cant forget that without the special training they got, their power levels would be laughable tbh, especially Goku and Gohan from where they started.

When I say "U6 Saiyans are naturally stronger than U7 Saiyans", I mean their natural power without any extraordinary training methods (anything that has to do with Magic or Deity based power boosts and training that The U7 Saiyans received).

With the special training considered the U7 Saiyans are far above them definitely.

No Vegeta said that line in the manga too.
The thing about that line is we don't know if Vegeta was being modest or not. Because Cabba didn't do ANY damage to vegeta. Meanwhile Vegeta only hit him once and hurt him badly before turning SSJ to torture him.

But the explanation for Caulifa being stronger than Cabba was that she was a prodigy. She was basically the female Goku that loved fighting. Kale is just U6 Broly.

You have to remember post Gohan becoming an SSJ has been retcon to death so unless it's definitively said theu're stronger than I just can't think they are because it's been too many contradictions. Like Gohan soloing Kefla.

And 17 in Super shouldn’t be as strong as he is. Future Trunks power up is random bs, etc. both series are terrible, one could easily argue GT made more sense (as little sense as the power scaling made).

As for Goten that’s fine, in fact a perfect way for his character to act. At the end of Z he is already trending that direction, makes perfect sense for him in GT.

Facts best ending ever

Android 17 in Super ran off the fact that Androids have high potiental. It was stated by Toriyama that with training they can become even stronger. Android 17 never stopped training since the cell games. Android 17 in GT did and then fused with a copy of himself to become stronger.

Future Trunks finishing move in the anime was an asspull. The power ups was to showcase the abuse of Zenkai boosts and how it can become a problem if a Saiyan ever got his/her body hijacked. It wasn't random it actually had story elements for it.

But him trending that way doesn't show growth. People in fact complained for years that Goten was done wrong in GT because he barely got any screen time compared to Trunks.

The only thing in Super that was a mess was the tournament of power. That was because it was rushed to the finished with little development. It was even worst in the manga where it was rushed to get to the next major story arc that was Toyotarou first solo arc that setup the anime in the future.

Using the manga as your argument

I wasn't using the manga as the basis of my argument. Both the anime and manga have a branched canon that both show Kefla being solo'd by someone stronger than Kale and Caulifa. In the Anime it was Goku, in the manga Toyo had Gohan do it.

Even in the anime there is nothing stated that definitively say they're stronger than U7 saiyans.

Idk

Hopefully we get a U6 arc with Vegeta visiting the Saiyan planet

But Caulifla was definitely a prodigy and was already powerful from what they showed

Kale is a straight ass pull

brought tears to my eyes

Yall gotta understand that yea sure, going super saiyan felt like it was a emotional reaction when they introduced it

But that was only the 1st time

Like they don't have a emotional reaction every time they go super saiyan lmao

Once they did it once they realized, oh, the power comes from your back lol

Cabba just explained it stupidly

That isn't true and is explained by Vegeta to Cabba that the emotional reaction is suppose to be a footprint to remember when you go SSJ. How can you retcon that into it being a tangly back feeling.

No that's legit the Canon reason. It was explained by Toriyama that it was S-cells and a tangly feeling in your back during an interview.

It was mentioned that she was a prodigy that's why she was so strong. She never trained ever and has zero martial arts experience. She just fights like a brawler. Thats why Goku was able to easily beat her around.

It’s still insanely illogical that 17 is that powerful. Dudes been on an island protecting animals. This is widely criticized as is plenty of Super’s atrocious power scaling.

Future Trunks random anger form was stupid as hell, I didn’t mind Black being that strong.

Screentime & him developing naturally (the way he was shown at end of Z) are two different things. He definitely didn’t get enough screentime, but hell I’ll take GT Goten over Super‘s treatment of Goten any day of the week.

Black arc is cool but a mess at the end. ToP as u said is a mess. Both heavily flawed shows. Super has a huge issue in that the space between Buu arc and end of Z needs to end, we know how this story ends lol.

I don't remember him saying it's the footprint

I'd have to go back in watch that

Doesn't make sense because he saw Trunks go SSJ without that lmao

Well again I would like them to go into a more in-depth look at the U6 saiyans

And yes of course Goku gonna beat her easily

But still, Caulifla's skills looked way too polished to not have any training

Then again Tory always changing s*** so to try to keep up with it is pointless at this point lol

Man pretty much changed the whole origin of Goku and Vegeta with the Broly movie lol

The 100 year time skip have me chills. Still has me thinking

Would love a series going over what happened in those 100 years or even a series of Goku & Vegeta Jr 😌

the back and forth discussing of which ass pulls are worse from which successor to DB is why this series dead lol

What lol? Nobody complains about 17 in Super because it was said he uses the poachers as training fodder and that he uses the animals as training too. He never stopped training for 10+ years.

Again that was the anime adding a form for merchandise. It's technically not a new form just Trucks rage Personified.

Goten in Super was at least used! Goten in GT wasn't and when he was it was because he got infected by Baby.

We don't know if the ending will be changed.

No her skills didn't look polished lol. Go look at the episode when Goku toyed with her. Whis even mentions that Caulifa is no match for Goku because she doesn't know Martial arts, she's just out there throwing punches lol.

I need to watch Dragon Ball Super haven't started watching yet is it good ?

Yeah it's a good watch.

Kales power is no less of an asspull than Broly.

She's basically set up to be the Hulk/Berzerker/LSSJ of Universe 6.
Now what is a true asspull is her gaining control of her Super Saiyan form so quickly in the TOP.