1+1=2 is not only true because we "agreed its true". its a universal truth. thus it has been discovered and not invented.

we only invented the tools to describe math (e.g. numbers and signs)

what leads you to believe that it is a universal truth?

She was a woman and she did

@hopsin

Who

because it is something that would be true and occur in nature whether humans discovered it or not.

I think we arguing 2 different things, cause I agree with what ur saying I stated it earlier in the thread. I was more so talking about the literal fields and studies of mathematics and science being a man made thing not the observations that were already there

Read my post on page 3 it answers your question perfectly

1+1=2 is a universal truth, the only part we “agreed on” is naming 2 2.

Edit: my bad meant page 3 not 4

i guess i'm saying

i'm not convinced that the idea of 1+1=2 is universally true

because i only believe that's true because it was ingrained in me from childhood

how do i truly know the answer to 1+1 if i did not discover it myself?

going further... what even is a one? or a two?

stripping all of those things away

what's left?

whatever that is... is the universal truth and i don't think we can get there without dying or out of body experiences

does that make sense? this is difficult to explain sometimes haha

A lack of psychedelics

wow this is so awesome

i love this stuff so much

i wish school really was about learning
and not trying to get a degree to make money etc.

cause i'd go to college for stuff like this

no ive done plenty

I learned this in university

But yeah vast majority of my classes weren’t as cool or interesting as this one

the basic concept is left. thats why its an universal truth

we can all agree that a stone for example is discovered and not invented right? so if you strip our understanding of what a stone is, how and why it is there etc, away from it, down to the word "stone" (which was invented) itself than wouldnt it still be a stone?

the same goes for "1+1=2". we only invented the signs and numbers to describe it, but if humans wouldve never discovered that if you add something to something youll get something else it would still be true

There are different schools of thought on this. It seems to an argument between intuitinism/platonism.

Intuisinism "is an approach where mathematics is considered to be purely the result of the constructive mental activity of humans rather than the discovery of fundamental principles claimed to exist in an objective reality."

so the difference here is a semantic one. I understand mathematics to be a language or a set of laws and axioms applied to the universe. You understand it to be something inherent to the universe, predating (or separate from entirely) language and existing as its own governing principle.

We've reached an impasse, as as is usually the case with semantic disagreements.

i agree that the basic concept is left

but as you noted, the word stone was invented

so when we take away what we invented

how can anyone say what it actually is?

it is what it is, yes

but the language we use to define it will always color it with something subjective vs objective

going back to my color point

we all have seen the color blue

but how do we know that we're all seeing the same blue?

why is it called blue? what is blue?

if we take away the idea of blue... what is that color?

how can anyone say?

discovered, if you know you know

@ROVO

I might be climbing on mirrors here but this is just the way I see it. I'm using the word concept by it's definition. That idea isn't what you've found per se, the phenomenon is what you've found and the concept is what you've thought up to try explain it

the idea didn't always exist, the phenomenon did

that apple always falling from the tree exposes a phenomenon, Newton had a concept when viewing this which grew into the theory of gravity

I'm making the distiction that one (phenomena) is how the universe works and the other (concept) is us percieving and describing it.

I bring this up because the title is using the term mathmatics, which is manmade as is logic, correct? just because these are manmade does not mean they're not rooted in natural phenomena of how the universe works. It is us who doing the concieving, of ways to describe how the world works through numbers, letters what have you

WINDOWSS

I invented math....so I could count my f***ing cash

we are all seeing the same blue because its not defined by your brains interpretation of it but by the laws of physics

and whether we would know that or not it would still be true

As far as i understand, the “laws of physics” arent exactly definitive and conclusive. There is a lot we dont know. Theres no need to be decisive about it except to win arguments. Is your brains interpretation of the laws of physics defined by the laws of physics?

Youre still plugged in bro

(And btw i was taking the piss about psychs before didnt mean to be mean about it sorry)

It was invented when people transitioned from hunter gatherer societies to agricultural ones. They compared crop yields and over time developed basic math to keep track of production

id say discovered

So when two hunters were missing spears they didnt think “oh we need two more spears”?